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IkimashoZ
Slightly Deformed Faerie Princess


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 34
Location: Hawaii

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:24 am    Post subject: [quote]

http://kambou.ikimashoz.com/ <-- Referring to here

This is the website that I did build from the ground up in XHTML strict, which I eventually ended up ditching for HTML4. I'm also running PHP on this site. Basically, there's a header.php, footer.php, index.php and various subsections which call all of those and a few other random functions I wrote. I've done bigger projects (web apps) with many more files, but for this one, I don't want thousands of stylesheets in the way. I want these three files. And that's it.

As per height -- this was my biggest annoyance during the whole XHTML process, everything else was stuff that could have been tidied up after the fact -- as you can see, I have a footer. On index.php, there is only the single kanji image at the center of the screen. My footer is at the bottom of the screen, and it is guaranteed to be at the bottom of the screen not matter what your screen resolution is.

Here are the options XHTML gave me:

1) The footer is directly below the kanji image is directly below the header. This is ugly. No.

2) I set a fixed height for the middle div. Well, I use 1024x768. What if you use a higher res? Or a lower res (god forbid)? Now the footer might be below the bottom of the screen or somewhere around 3/4 of the way down. This is also ugly.

3) set html height 100%, set body height 100%, set div height 100%... and I get a div that's in actuality about 150% of the screen. Come again??

This is when I rewrote the whole thing in HTML 4. My searches on google had produced some other ideas to try, but I really wasn't interested. A language designed for formatting should not have trouble filling the screen.

Quote:
There's a reason why height is only allowed to be absolute: in some contexts, the concept of "height" doesn't make sense, or is ambiguous. When you make a web page, you are building a document, something which is designed to convey information. Precise control is for desktop publishing and PDFs.


When would height not make sense? Height, just like width, is dynamic depending on the viewing device of the user. In most cases, I hope, a screen. I cannot imagine a viewing device that does not occupy a measurable amount of the 1st and 2nd of 3 dimensions. Why then should XHTML not simply access both of these measurements?

Quote:
You're looking at web design from a DTP perspective, and if you're going to do that, why not work with something like Flash instead?


Because it's too expensive and I don't pirate software. Oh yeah, and I live in Japan, so even if I did have the money, getting it to me would be hard as hell.
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DeveloperX
202192397


Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1623
Location: Decatur, IL, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: [quote]

IkimashoZ wrote:
http://kambou.ikimashoz.com/ <-- Referring to here

This is the website that I did build from the ground up in XHTML strict, which I eventually ended up ditching for HTML4.


Nice website man.
I love how the kanji only appear in the background when you view the screen at an angle. ......and the game looks very interesting.
I played with Verge a looong time ago.
I made about 50 or so tiny demos (all of which I lost horribly due to a painful harddrive malfunction years ago....man that sucked...60GB gone. I learned my lesson for backups that day...grr still pissed about myself never backing anything up..thinking "its on the drive...what could happen?".........heh don't ever make that mistake.)

Keep up the good work on your game.
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IkimashoZ
Slightly Deformed Faerie Princess


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 34
Location: Hawaii

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: [quote]

Heh. Thanks.

Actually, my students just came in looking at my game and wanted to look at the website. I gave them the address and they wanted to know if it would work on thier cell phones because some of them don't have comps at home, since a Japanese cell phone can do pretty much everything they would do with a PC.

Well guess what, my own cell barfed up my website putridly, getting only the background right, so now I get to go back and look at XHMTL strict and figure out how this thing is supposed to work.

And btw, all my sites and games are in two places -- my HD and my external HD, which I love to death.
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter


Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:29 am    Post subject: [quote]

LeoDraco wrote:
And nodtveidt: you're attitude towards HTML 4 is exactly why we still have the leper hanging around.

My attitude towards it will likely never change. I will continue to use the HTML4 standard until browsers no longer display it. If it aint broke, dont friggin fix it.
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IkimashoZ
Slightly Deformed Faerie Princess


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 34
Location: Hawaii

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject: [quote]

My site is now XHTML strict compliant. The site looks pretty good, too. Much like before. I'm still mad about that footer though.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: [quote]

nodtveidt wrote:
LeoDraco wrote:
And nodtveidt: you're attitude towards HTML 4 is exactly why we still have the leper hanging around.

My attitude towards it will likely never change. I will continue to use the HTML4 standard until browsers no longer display it. If it aint broke, dont friggin fix it.

It is broke, though, and that is exactly the point; in this thread alone, an HTML 4 site broke in a certain instance. HTML is so broken that, as Tunginobi suggested, even modern browsers have a hard time parsing it properly; this is entirely because it is inconsistent.
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RedSlash
Mage


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: [quote]

This is quite a big thread about XHTML vs HTML. I don't see why the huge debate over HTML4 vs XHTML. If people think HTML is going to go away and get replaced by XHTML, well its not going to happen anytime soon because HTML5 is being drafted right now.

Alot of web designers don't code in straight up HTML/XHTML anymore these days because coding with tags is very limited in terms of production and efficiency. Most web designer want to concentrate on building the graphics and getting the page layout to look nice without having to bother with the underlying code. Sites coded in straight up HTML/XHTML usually turns out to be really simplistic (mines included) because the authors spent more time on getting the coding correct rather than focusing on the design and visual appearance of the site.

Sure, use of HTML editors may generate not so nicely formatted code and maybe excess sometimes, but it will let you concentrate on your web design layout without worrying on getting the XHTML correct or making sure it displays properly across most browsers. So rather than saying that HTML4 is obsolete, I would say programming XHTML/HTML in textpad is obsolete (and I contradict myself in saying this because I code HTML in textpad too, but this is the reality that you learn when you enter the graphics design industry).
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tunginobi
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: [quote]

So you're the one working on the new game here? Good luck with that, I'm interested to see how that turns out.

The Flash thing was just a suggestion. I think it's possible to do the height centreing thing with JavaScript as well, but I haven't tried it myself.

As for the stylesheet thing, you can get away with inlining them, or putting them at the top of your pages, as well as making them externally linked.

I brought up DTP more to consider how people think about designing web pages. This is why I don't like WYSIWYG editors: they try to give you absolute control over something that's meant to be flexible enough to display well in different situations.


Does anybody else here like to draw their designs roughly on paper before they get into it, or is that just a "me" thing?
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Terry
Spectral Form


Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 798
Location: Dublin, Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
Does anybody else here like to draw their designs roughly on paper before they get into it, or is that just a "me" thing?


I'm awful that way. I used to just be able to knock something together in a couple of hours, but these days I plan everything meticiously, regardless of how simple an addition it is. Even the silly two box thing on my own website's frontpage took me about a month of tinkering to get it how I liked.

(It's also why my RPG engine is taking so long.)
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BadMrBox
Bringer of Apocalypse


Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 1018
Location: Dark Forest's of Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: [quote]

tunginobi wrote:
Does anybody else here like to draw their designs roughly on paper before they get into it, or is that just a "me" thing?
Nope, it's not only you. I do it too, but it really doesn't help too much.
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