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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:05 am Post subject: |
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I've tried out all the contest entries. I have to say that while everyone seems to have put a lot of effort into their games, not so many people put much thought into how to APPLY that effort.
Seriously, you don't need to write a scripting language and compiler for a weekend game contest. Believe it or not, there are simpler ways to make things happen in a (small) game.
Instead of building a massive, overly-capable foundation for a teeny little "house of cards" demo (or in some cases, nothing at all), try working on a modestly scaled but more complete game instead. Consider hard-coding the script to save time. After all, you don't need to be concerned with scalability issues in a weekend contest. Instead of writing a mapmaker, consider using 8-bit image files for the maps and assign each tile a different pallete index value.
One problem seems to be that several people had designs on expounding their games after the contest. It hurts your chances when you try running a marathon pace at a 100-yard dash event, and tends to spoil the competition.
I do applaud everyone's efforts, especially the entries that are actually games: Ninja'd and Guardian.
Ninja'd was pretty much the right kind of game for a weekend contest, it wasn't overly ambitious but still had enough meat to sink your teeth into. A good go and the best entry.
I believe the guy behind Guardian said he spent a lot of time tweaking the battle program. I would say that when there is a deadline looming there comes a point where you have to accept that "it is what it is" and move on to other things. If the game had a slightly glitchy battle system but also had more actual game to follow, I would have found that preferable.
Also, why is the right control button the "action" button? You didn't mention it in the readme.txt (except rather obliquely in a sentance desribing a possible glitch that i notced after the fact). Its a rather obscure action button to my thinking, and it would have been nice to also be able to use the left control button. I had to smoosh both hands all in the same place on the keyboard in order to play. I always like to see a WASD option, and there's no harm in offering multiple keyboard configurations (I know I always do). Still these are kind of quibbles, it was a decent entry.
I had no technical problems with the entries besides one or two of them being overly-fast (didn't use a timing mechanism compatible with my OS and/or processor- or maybe just didn't use any timing mechanism at all).
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| ThousandKnives wrote: | Seriously, you don't need to write a scripting language and compiler for a weekend game contest.
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It's quite obvious that you directed that at me.
All I can say is that I originally did not intend to things that way that we did, it just developed into that. With 3rd party scripting being too cumbersome to learn how to implement it, and hardcoding events makes it a bitch to debug, even for a weekend competition, I don't want level 400 character fighting level 5 enemies...However, _if_ I had had a set of tools available to me, such as a previously made engine, then I have no doubts that I would have completed my game, in full.
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Believe it or not, there are simpler ways to make things happen in a (small) game.
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Like I said, I had to write my own tools, cause learning 3rd party programs was not an option.
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Instead of building a massive, overly-capable foundation for a teeny little "house of cards" demo (or in some cases, nothing at all),
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I would rather complete a highly capable engine _once_ and be able to use it over and over, than to have to write _another_ set of tools later on. I'm getting old, and I need to have some reusable stuff to develop with.
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Instead of writing a mapmaker, consider using 8-bit image files for the maps and assign each tile a different pallete index value.
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I've done that before, it is a real pain to remember the proper color for tiles in 100+ sets of tiles.
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I had no technical problems with the entries besides one or two of them being overly-fast (didn't use a timing mechanism compatible with my OS and/or processor- or maybe just didn't use any timing mechanism at all). |
That was definately not something I saw coming during development of the engine. I do not have the experience that most of you have. I have not created a game engine before. I didn't know that the game would run so damn fast, it seemed too slow for me to play while making it.
Anyway, various people have helped me get the timing figured out, (Bjorn was a major help) and I am still working on my game.
I will not stop working on this game until I finish it. That much I can promise everyone.
...man 90% of your post was directed at me....lol.
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: |
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DeveloperX, it's rather weird if you start claiming learning how to use a 3rd party scripting language would take more time or be more complicated than doing your own. It makes me think you haven't even tried. I would understand if you simply found it more interesting to do your own.
Our problem, which led to no release at all, was simply that we wanted too much new stuff in there. We could have taken the engine as it was with BBRpg and build a game from there, but then that would not have been a lot of fun for anyone. No instead we went on with a switch to a different map editor (Tiled), tile-free movement (biggest change) and a little worm that couldn't use our default character animation and movement scheme. When we had finished that, and some graphics, the contest simply was over and we didn't really have time to work on it during the next week.
| DeveloperX wrote: | | Anyway, various people have helped me get the timing figured out, (Bjørn was a major help) and I am still working on my game. |
Contact me if you're ready for part 2: getting the game to run fast on your PC too.
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bjørn wrote: | DeveloperX, it's rather weird if you start claiming learning how to use a 3rd party scripting language would take more time or be more complicated than doing your own. It makes me think you haven't even tried. I would understand if you simply found it more interesting to do your own.
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What I meant was that learning the syntax of a 3rd party language, and also learning how to integrate it within your engine would be more hassle than writing your won, with which you have full control, and full knowledge of its syntax.
LordGalbalan has pulled a David Copperfield, and as such, I'm looking into other options, such as Tcl. I don't understand his virtual machine code...bleh. TONY WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU?!?!!
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Last edited by DeveloperX on Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:44 am Post subject: |
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I would rather complete a highly capable engine _once_ and be able to use it over and over, than to have to write _another_ set of tools later on. I'm getting old, and I need to have some reusable stuff to develop with.
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That was pretty much the point I was speaking to. If you want to have a highly capable engine, don't write it during a weekend contest. Either write it beforehand (if allowed) or come up with a simpler solution.
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I've done that before, it is a real pain to remember the proper color for tiles in 100+ sets of tiles.
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Once again, that's a valid point for a large project but not a weekend project. When are you going to find the time during ONE WEEKEND to make so many tiles that you can't keep track of them all? Even if you are using pre-made tiles (if allowed) there is only time to make a limited number of maps. I don't see how this could even begin to become an issue. Also I said you should use a palleted image, that way you can simply remember the index # instead of needing to know the exact color values.
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That was definitely not something I saw coming during development of the engine. I do not have the experience that most of you have. I have not created a game engine before. I didn't know that the game would run so damn fast, it seemed too slow for me to play while making it.
Anyway, various people have helped me get the timing figured out, (Bjørn was a major help) and I am still working on my game.
I will not stop working on this game until I finish it. That much I can promise everyone.
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The speed thing was no big deal really. If there had been more game to play I'm sure I could have gotten around an issue like that (depends on whether it seriously effected playability). The speed issues I referred to were present in 2 or 3 of the games, as I said. I wasn't singling you out. Ninja'd ran slow and SHACSH and Guardian also ran fast (although not quite as severely).
| Quote: | | ...man 90% of your post was directed at me....lol. |
Actually it was more like 25-33%. I spent almost 50% talking about Guardian and Ninja'd. I wasn't directing all of that at you either- there were several people who didn't even submit anything. You certainly did better than they, and while Mandrake's entry looks spiffier there isn't much more in the way of content. In fact if you had taken 5-10 seconds to move the starting position of the character to dry land they would have been pretty much evenly matched.
My point was simply to provide some contest strategy pointers. Making a game for a weekend contest is not the same as making a full-out non-contest game. You gotta think about the clock.
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| ThousandKnives wrote: | When are you going to find the time during ONE WEEKEND to make so many tiles that you can't keep track of them all? Even if you are using pre-made tiles (if allowed) there is only time to make a limited number of maps. I don't see how this could even begin to become an issue. Also I said you should use a palleted image, that way you can simply remember the index # instead of needing to know the exact color values.
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I wasn't drawing the artwork, so there was plenty of time.
I wouldn't be able to remember 256 tile index numbers if I tried.
| Quote: | In fact if you had taken 5-10 seconds to move the starting position of the character to dry land they would have been pretty much evenly matched.
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Actually, I tried to move the starting position...due to the way things were written, I simply could not figure out how to do so, and LordGalbalan said to just upload what we had, so at least we had _something_ submitted. I personally wish that I could have used my current available download as my submitted entry, but alas, it doesn't count anymore, oh well. There is always next competition! I'm not really bothered by not getting a playable demo completed during the compo, since I didn't have the advantage everyone else did; A complete engine.
Mandrake had his Gia thing. Adam had that cool iso engine thing. Chaotic Harmony had his Project distraction engine.
I didn't have anything I could fall back on, or look to as a guide.
This is my first game engine. I have written games before, just never an engine. My games were usually very small, with everything hardcoded. My original plan was to write my entry using QBasic, everything to be hardcoded, with a short excert plot from a larger game I was working on previously.
That didn't happen for many reasons that I have already said somewhere around here...
Anyway, I just want to finish my game.
I need all the help I can get though, so if anyone has even an hour a day to spare, please, please help me out.
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Making a game for a weekend contest is not the same as making a full-out non-contest game. You gotta think about the clock. |
I know, I "feature-creeped" and aimed too high for my entry. But I know that I can make this game, just need a little help from my friends. ;) ~~ Dad made me watch a Beatles Movie...heh, anyway..I'm heading from here to try to track down the bugs in my player's animation. Later guys.
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Adam
Mage
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 416
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Starting with some kind of engine should really be a required part of the comp. But after about 2 years of sucky entries i've began to wize up to this. My project is still waaaay smaller than what i would have liked it to be.
Everything in the game was pretty much hard coded. With a few text files to define where doors and lights and stuff go.
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Terry
Spectral Form
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 798
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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BTW adam, what on earth was that .penis file in your system directory?
(edit) Actually, I guess I should reply:
| Quote: | I believe the guy behind Guardian said he spent a lot of time tweaking the battle program. I would say that when there is a deadline looming there comes a point where you have to accept that "it is what it is" and move on to other things. If the game had a slightly glitchy battle system but also had more actual game to follow, I would have found that preferable.
Also, why is the right control button the "action" button? You didn't mention it in the readme.txt (except rather obliquely in a sentance desribing a possible glitch that i notced after the fact). Its a rather obscure action button to my thinking, and it would have been nice to also be able to use the left control button. I had to smoosh both hands all in the same place on the keyboard in order to play. I always like to see a WASD option, and there's no harm in offering multiple keyboard configurations (I know I always do). Still these are kind of quibbles, it was a decent entry. |
I'm glad you (mostly) liked it :) I agree with you completely on the game's flaws - you'll be able to customise the controls in the final version on the engine. I got some negative feedback on the wsad setup from the PD demo, I just thought the arrow keys might be more comfortable to most people.
(edit 2) Just curious, I've only realised that I left the right alt button active (which was a testing button to get the lightning effect working properly). Did anybody find it by accident when they were looking for the action button? :)
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Adam
Mage
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 416
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, it's a temporary file during networking. The client would connect to the server and download the page to workfile.penis then read the file in.
Wasn't meant to be there for this game tho.
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| adam wrote: | Oh, it's a temporary file during networking. The client would connect to the server and download the page to workfile.penis then read the file in.
Wasn't meant to be there for this game tho. |
what a "mature" client. ;)
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Adam
Mage
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 416
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| DeveloperX wrote: | | what a "mature" client. ;) |
Yes, it was very immature to save to a file instead of using a buffer.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I did notice was that a lot of people where using engines they had been working on for a while. Which is a good sign to me.
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With 3rd party scripting being too cumbersome to learn how to implement it, and hardcoding events makes it a bitch to debug, even for a weekend competition, I don't want level 400 character fighting level 5 enemies...However, _if_ I had had a set of tools available to me, such as a previously made engine
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You know enough of the Lua syntax, why not just embed that? What's so hard about that? It's inanely simple.
Also- about the prev made engine....do you have a problem with Verge? Or Fury2? Or OHR:RPGCE? Or RPGM2K? Or Sphere? The list goes on and on. Premade (even ones not be you) have always been allowed because for a while there where quite a few RPGMaker and OHR enthusiasts that used to frequent this board.
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: | You know enough of the Lua syntax, why not just embed that? What's so hard about that? It's inanely simple.
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I can't seem to get it to compile / link using DevC.... perhaps you can give up some code? :)
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Also- about the prev made engine....do you have a problem with Verge? Or Fury2? Or OHR:RPGCE? Or RPGM2K? Or Sphere? The list goes on and on. Premade (even ones not be you) have always been allowed because for a while there where quite a few RPGMaker and OHR enthusiasts that used to frequent this board. |
I wanted to use my own engine...I could have used RPGMaker95, or GameMaker Pro.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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?? It's pretty simple. Download Lua 5. Download the Lua 5 .bat compile-thingy. Double click on it. Embed and link.
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| DeveloperX wrote: | | I can't seem to get it to compile / link using DevC.... perhaps you can give up some code? :) |
http://lua-users.org/wiki/BuildingLua might help you. It has specific instructions for Dev-C++ too.
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