[Hajo]

[Mandrake]

Why don't we move this conversation over to writing?

Anyway, I have to disagree with you on that point. You are talking about two things here- Immersion and Suspension of Disbelief. NPC's may be wooden- but they don't have to be. Sure, most of the time they spit out prefabricated text- but that should not be a point of where the player loses suspension of disbelief. But, if you are talking about creating a world in which we experience, I'd have to disagree- a world in which you experience and believe to be real (in the sense that you are completely immersed, not in the sense of being crazy) is something I think not only is possible in an RPG, but has happened. For example- in Ultima 6 & 7 the NPC's not only walked around town, but also went to work, at dinner at night, went to the pub and relaxed after work. Or they would walk down the beach. And they *knew* what they were doing.

In Ultima 4 the game used a very effective conversation tree (simple chat type program. response to keywords) that made you feel like you were actually talking to someone. The conversation actually kept going, like a real conversation. Example.

(NPC is in quotes, PC is not)
hi
"Hello traveller"
job
"I'm a bar wench, I wait tables for a living. Would you like anything to drink?"
drink
"We have a good special today. Grog for only four gold!"
day
"Oh my day is going fine. But I thought I saw something strange happen earlier"
strange
"It was the oddest thing. A drunk all dressed in black was trying to sneak into the castle. Very poorly at that"
drunk
"Well, the odd part is, he look liked one of the town friars"

Etc, etc, etc. But it gave you a feeling of how a real conversation works. Ideas flow from one place to the next. Another way to accomplish this in a more simplistic fashion is to focus on a linear story with very well drawn characters. Much like a novel or a movie, it will feel real (even though the player is restricted) and seem more like it is actually happening.

We can create worlds. But it is also a two way street, we need to help enforce suspension of disbelief, but the player also has to be willing to suspend it. Many people think their Sims are real, even though without supervision they will most likely wet themselves and then starve themselves to death or catch on fire. Yet somehow- people look past these flaws.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark

http://pauljessup.com

[Hajo]

We can move this over to writing. I assume you're a moderator and can do that?

[Nephilim]

I think it's useful to point out that Ultima IV did not use a conversation tree. It was simple text-response, and it only looked at the first four letters of what you typed.

In other words, you could also have this conversation:

[white_door]

Techinically Ultima 4 might not have been a conversation tree in terms of its programming, but it was one in terms of its logical layout. You only could find out keywords as they came up in parts of the conversation. Often times the conversation would branch out with one or more topics, by giving you two keywords in one statement.

But going back to the main topic, does complex NPC conversation (for every NPC) really help in making your world alive?

Its only interesting or plot characters that will have interesting things to say. And yes, having control of a conversation can be really fun, but does it really add anything to it? If there are different results to the plot based on the conversation path choosen, it can really add another level to the strategy in a game ... However I don't see it a mandatory for an emersive experence. There are other methods for making a world come alive.

Getting the NPCs to move to different places at different times, is cool but something even more important is NPC placement. Some games have the NPCs just wandering around random locations where it doesn't particularly make sense for them to be. Even if you imagine the PC has walked into the town a single frozen point in time... what would everyone being doing at that exact moment? If you have the NPCs move around during the day.. this just becomes more important, it doesn't change the issue. And what would they say to a complete stranger who walked up and tapped them on the sholder?

I mean what would happen if you walked around a strange town talking to every stranger you came across? I think most people would have a series of standard responses like, "What do you want?", "Piss off!", "What's your problem", "Fu..", etc...

Actually I played an interactive fiction (text adventure) a few days ago that had a really nice conversation system. It had the following features, You could choose a line to say involving the current topic of conversation. (1,2,3,...etc) And as you spoke new options would be added to the current topic and old/invalidated options would disappear. (this was paricularly the case when given two ways of saying the same thing) The conversation would naturally change topic as you spoke, however you could also choose to change the topic to something else. (through the use of the "topic <topicname>" command) Sometimes the npc would choose to bring up a new topic, if something happened.. like an interesting person walked into the room. You could also show/give items to the NPC would could result in a new topic being discovered. Finally you could only speak to people you had been introduced to, people you had been told to speak to, or people who had spoken to you first.

So while each option to say and the NPC's response to it was predesigned ... it was extremely interesting and almost felt like having a real free flowing conversation with someone. Also including the social taboos who you could of speak to was very cool. While you can techinically do anything you want, there are some things certain people just can't do due to fear or taboo. At one point in the story.. I chose one option but the character ignored me .. and said something else, becuase she just couldn't bring herself to say that.

anyway if you want to try it out: http://home.mindspring.com/~emshort/pytho.htm

Personally I agree with your statement that natural language processing is pretty much a waste of time, chatterbots are just too stupid to mantain the illusion of a real character.. even one liners are better.

[Hajo]

[white_door]

I guess in my mind there are a list of factors which can help make a game world seem real:

* NPCs - placement, conversation, and movement
* Simulation of world - NPCs having lives, weather & water features, day/night, items having weight and/or volume and background animations on maps.
* Design of world - orginality and plausibility in the design and reasons for things like the landscape, the towns, and the enemies. Also the design and style of the artwork.
* Interesting and involving side plots and quests. This is actually pretty important... its really good for making the player feel like there are lots of little things that are going on all around in the land, also helps distract them.
* mini-games, I hate them when required.. but as optional stuff.. it can be pretty fun... I'd love to build a simple poker game into an RPG and allow bets and stuff at any tavern/inn.

[Mandrake]

[Rainer Deyke]

I can think of plenty of games which are neither immersive in the story sense nor immersive in the exploration sense, which indicates to me that the two are, if not fully compatible, at least not polar opposites. Actually there are very few games that are completely on one side - most nonlinear rpgs provide some sort of plot, and most story based rpgs have some optional side quests. Personally I'd like to see more games that try to bridge the gap.

[white_door]

For me... being forced into an arcade minigame is horrible.. but being able to optionally take part in a game or use a game machine in some room... adds to the game.

[Mandrake]

[biggerUniverse]

I'd say that any nonlinear game has a plot, and it's the plot of the user moving around in the world. You immerse them when you can show that you understand what they are doing, and create a feedback loop.

This is perhaps a blatant, huge generalization, but it's what we forget when we want to tell a story to the play. That story is a dictation, whether we like it or not, we are forcing them to play our story, not theirs. That's why people like nonlinearity.

So how do you make a plotless, goalless game, and then create the plot and goals based on what the player does?
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[Mandrake]

[Mandrake]

[white_door]

Yes Ultima 7 was one, another was Planescape: Torment..

In Ultima 7, they had a completely free and open world with a linear plot threaded through the world.. that the player was free to follow at their own pace.

Torment used what I like to think of as.. non-linear bubbles in a linear plot. So you would have an exploration section to the game followed by a fixed plot event, and then back to the exploration section.

During the exploration the player was bound to exploring a fixed number of areas at any given moment... However with in these areas would be total free will... this was handled through a large number of optional conversations, events or quests that could take place. Also you could have conversations with each of your party members at anytime... that could change your relationship with them, allow you to learn more about them, or even allow them to improve themselves through your insight.

After each fixed plot element, either the exploration area would expand to allow them explore more, or the game would transport them to a new area. In addition, new quests elements would be added.

Even within each fixed plot events there were multiple solutions to each problem. And multiple conversation paths that could have long term effects on the game. Including the end of it.

They had a massive world with so many details and so many pathways and options to do.. However at no point was I confused about the plot or what was happenning next. So I was both engrossed by the feeling that I was in a free moving world and at the same time.. drawn in by the twists and turns in the plot.

It might be impossible for a game to be both linear and non-linear at the same time.. but Torment was both linear and non-linear at different moments. And this just rocked. And if it was done once it proves it can be done, and could be done again.