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bay
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:09 am Post subject: |
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btw, what I meant by I agree with Janus is that LGB's project seems to do just the oppisate. And besides- no matter what tools you give them, and amateur won't be able to do proffesional level work. It's just not going to happen. Programming languages can't make up for skill. And skill is required to be earned through years and years of practice. Period. Crappy games with a pretty wrapper are still crappy games.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. Experience is the most important thing in terms of quality, certainly. Although, I think that what seperates the professionals from "us" is 1) compensation as currency, 2) team cohesiveness (due to compensation as currency), and 3) team size. (again due to the compensation thing)
Money is the thing that brings people together whether they agree or not. Without money, there is no shot for the "indie community" to produce a "professional grade" product. We see, again and again, teams break and tear because of some little squibble squabble that erupted between the project leader, in particular, and another team member. In a professional environment, the threat of joblessness keeps these issues at a minimum, and at an enforced cordiality between members of a professional team. We are "indie" because we are in it, at times for "fun" I think, but also at times simply to express ourselves in a way that very clearly communicates who we are. I'm playing the Dies Irae remake now, by "I am Har Har Har" and it is telling me a lot about how he thinks, I think. There are some things I like, and some things I'm not that understanding of, but I can say the same for how he seems to me, also. I feel the same way about DarkDread's RPGs, the Cooey series and Mysterious Song, although, DarkDread is a very compassionate person from what I've seen of him, who doesn't really like argument, so his style seems very unique from Har Har Har's own. More open, and friendly. I guess I could say that I like DarkDread's games more than Har Har Har's, but I feel more comfortable with DarkDread's personality than with Har Har Har's, also, and I think that's a big part of it.
In a true corporate team setting, we know that there is a producer, and a writer(s), and artist(s), and a musician, and the programmers. So if DarkDread were going to make a game then he'd have to listen to the artist's opinion and the writer's opinion, and he'd have to talk to the programmers to find out what they could do with the hardware of the time and what they couldn't, and he'd probably have to moderate his initial vision, which probably wouldn't be that complete as his games seem well demo like, too, and respond to them because he has to respect their wishes and the company he is working for probably has a policy about teamwork and respect for the work of the artists. So he's got the artistic input from the visual artists and the writers and maybe even the child psychologist on the whole conflict good/evil thing, and he's got the programmers making it all as real as can be this day and age, and he ends up with something that hundreds of thousands of people are willing to sign away $30, maybe $40 bucks for.
In Indie, I don't think that we have that kinda mutual respect, don't you think?
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I agree. Experience is the most important thing in terms of quality, certainly. Although, I think that what seperates the professionals from "us" is 1) compensation as currency, 2) team cohesiveness (due to compensation as currency), and 3) team size. (again due to the compensation thing) |
Maybe that's what seperates the proffesionals from *you*, but some of us here (me included) don't only just do this sort of thing as a hobby. I didn't even read the rest of your ranting based just on this first sentance, and on how little it shows you know of the scene.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
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PhyrFox
Tenshi's Bitch (Peach says "Suck it!")
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: New York, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: | | Quote: | | I agree. Experience is the most important thing in terms of quality, certainly. Although, I think that what seperates the professionals from "us" is 1) compensation as currency, 2) team cohesiveness (due to compensation as currency), and 3) team size. (again due to the compensation thing) |
Maybe that's what seperates the proffesionals from *you*, but some of us here (me included) don't only just do this sort of thing as a hobby. I didn't even read the rest of your ranting based just on this first sentance, and on how little it shows you know of the scene. |
Money is not the main motivator of "indies." This is what sets us apart from generally the rest of the world. Other examples are the "non-commercial" versions of Linux or such. People who do something because they want to, not because they are paid to, are some of the best professionals out there.
However, the original post does have a point. Quite a few indie games I have tried to work on have failed; there was much quarrelling amongst the team members. This can only be avoided by carefully choosing the team and outlining a specific process that is "fair" for solving disputes.
Once this is done, the team must abide by the rules set forth, regardless of if they want to or not. Usually, by forcing themselves in the beginning, they find teamwork easier near the end. The most important thing here is that each team player needs to realize that compromises are required in order to complete the project within a reasonable time frame (if, indeed, the team is to succeed at all).
Smaller teams are better than larger teams; everyone knows this. However, a larger team that is willing to compromise will far surpass the speed and quality of the smaller team, and end up with a superior project. Therefore, it is not for indies to say "we can not work together as a team unless we are being paid," instead, we must say "my payment is satisfaction in knowing this project was a success; I can now show off this collaborated work as a demonstration of my talent."
A project performed by a larger group of indies will prove two things: 1) A desire to excel in the area in which they were assigned or voted into, 2) A desire and willingness to work well in a team environment. A portfolio project which satisfies both of these requirements are major milestones in possibly later landing a job with a major company (such as Square, Capcom, etc) doing the same thing you did in the project (that you enjoy doing anyway) and getting paid a lot of money for it.
Show off your talent together, work in a team, and let's see some more awesome projects! It's not an individual's efforts, it's the team's effort that will determine their overall success in the world of indie and professional development.
I hate seeing people argue about things needlessly, and I, for one, will not succumb to the smaller squabbles that occur. I want to get my project done, and if anyone wants to be my partner, not my "cohort" or "assistant", but a truly even partner in my ambitions, and is willing to at times contribute, and at times compromise... that is the one that I want on my team.
... Arguments do happen though. It's imperative at some point that somebody says, "Wait... we need to work this out. Let's not destroy our team over something so small as ( insert problem here )." Show the world that you are a professional, in the sense that you are willing to work with others to achieve a dream you could never achieve yourself.
---------------------
On another note: No coding done today. Realized today that the problem revolves around the general deficencies of C (as opposed to C++); re-writing all structures to take advantage of C++ "input" and "output" streams. Still determining the necessary format to ensure a successful system setup. Most likely the engine is going to look something like this (at the main level):
| Code: | { Engine << execute;
int retCode;
Engine >> retCode;
return retCode;
} |
What goes on behind the scenes will all be encapsulated in various classes designed to take advantage of polymorphic, streaming, and so on. I can deal with that.
~= PhyrFox =~
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PhyrFox
Tenshi's Bitch (Peach says "Suck it!")
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: New York, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: Updates |
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With the introduction to Linux, and having become familiar with the internal workings (at least to a reasonable limit) I have finally concluded that the next "version" of OHRRPGCE2 will indeed be a SDL project, such that it will be portable to the largest extent possible. I'm working on the nitty-gritty details at the moment. Apparently, working with SDL is going to make the project more or less universally compatible, automatically employing whatever services I need from the operating system to enhance the graphics and audio (hardware acceleration and sound buffers).
Next, then, is going to be the learning curve of switching to SDL, which thankfully looks a lot like the Win32 API that I'm already familiar with. Mark down another two week extension, everybody... But it's on it's way. Updates will be given sometime around 25-Feb-05. Probably including a playable demo for Linux and Windows 95 and higher.
~= phyrfox =~
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bay
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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sdl is quite easy to use, i've been coding against it for awhile now. granted, im not coding just against sdl.. i've been frameworking it out to allow swaps on medialayers.
.02$
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PhyrFox
Tenshi's Bitch (Peach says "Suck it!")
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: New York, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| bay wrote: | sdl is quite easy to use, i've been coding against it for awhile now. granted, im not coding just against sdl.. i've been frameworking it out to allow swaps on medialayers.
.02$ |
Since you've used it, may I ask you how I might link to it in, say, KDevelop3? That's the only thing that's confusing the heck out of me. I've installed all the appropriate packages, but currently, my linker says that it can not link to the various SDL functions that I've tried using, even though I finally got it to include the header file (of course, I'm not used to the upper/lower-case regulations yet).
What did I miss?
~= phyrfox =~
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PhyrFox
Tenshi's Bitch (Peach says "Suck it!")
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: New York, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: OHR Update |
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Conversion to SDL is quickly becoming a success. Thus far, I've actually managed to do more in SDL than I ever did in Windows. Now I just have to figure out how to make it target windows as well as Linux, so I can make cross-compiles. Currently, my code is big-endian dependent, since I'm running an Intel. Probably won't work on Macintosh yet. Then again, I can't test it out until I get my hands on a Mac. I'll add the cross-platform specific structures when it comes around to that. I'm also going to have to double up the load/save routines to make them cross-platform compatible. This is a great "first project" to learn cross-platform coding practices. Thus far, it's merely an attempt at making it cross-big-endian. And so far, it looks promising.
Updates coming forthwith.
~= phyrfox =~
Edit: As another note, once this is done, I'll be actively working on a new engine, also in 2D. This is teaching me the things I need to know to make a "professional-type" engine that will eventually be used on a few games I'm plotting design-wise.
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