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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter


Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: [quote]

janus wrote:
Aw, come on now. You can't say that stuff like this doesn't look nice...


Yes I can. The shading and outline on the foreground character look sloppy at best - a direct consequence of using low detail polygon models for organic characters. The lighting effect looks like a cheesy photoshop filter.
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Nephilim
Mage


Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:37 am    Post subject: [quote]

Hajo wrote:
janus wrote:
Nonetheless, though, it's hard to deny that some game concepts simply don't work in 2D.
Which exactly do you have in mind?


A good game concept that wouldn't translate well to 2D would be the 'Descent' games. In case you've never played them, they were basically fly-around-a-3D-environment-and-shoot-things games. The premise was that you are piloting a spacecraft in a zero-G space station or something, and there was basically no "up". Your ship could pitch and roll in any direction, and the level designs were complex tangles of chimneys, corridors, and chambers going off in awkward directions which absolutely defied thinking of the levels in two dimensions.

So, the core gameplay mechanic (besides twitch action) was trying to wrap your brain around true 3D environments (as opposed to ones that are merely '2D with height'). Very challenging on both fronts.
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janus
Mage


Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 464
Location: Issaquah, WA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:45 am    Post subject: [quote]

Rainer Deyke wrote:
janus wrote:
Aw, come on now. You can't say that stuff like this doesn't look nice...


Yes I can. The shading and outline on the foreground character look sloppy at best - a direct consequence of using low detail polygon models for organic characters. The lighting effect looks like a cheesy photoshop filter.
You're complaining about sloppy shading when 2D games all have static, inconsistent light sources? Uhhh...

I can see your point on the 'cheesy photoshop filter' bit, but it's not as if similar effects would look any better in 2D...
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bay
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:10 am    Post subject: [quote]

janus wrote:
You're complaining about sloppy shading when 2D games all have static, inconsistent light sources? Uhhh...


this being a point that i hope your lighting routines fix.

.02$
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janus
Mage


Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 464
Location: Issaquah, WA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: [quote]

bay wrote:
janus wrote:
You're complaining about sloppy shading when 2D games all have static, inconsistent light sources? Uhhh...


this being a point that i hope your lighting routines fix.

.02$
All you can do with 2D lighting is change the lighting of a surface or sprite... you can't alter the light sources of an existing piece of 2D art without having a bunch of masks and normal data and other crap like that, which would be pretty hard to generate without having 3D data to get it from. :) 3D lighting can at least be reasonably accurate.

You can't do this in 2D.
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter


Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:20 pm    Post subject: [quote]

janus wrote:
You're complaining about sloppy shading when 2D games all have static, inconsistent light sources? Uhhh...


I'd rather have good static shading than bad dynamic shading. If the static nature of typical 2D shading bothers you, just use bump maps.

Quote:
I can see your point on the 'cheesy photoshop filter' bit, but it's not as if similar effects would look any better in 2D...


The effect would look equally bad in 2D, but most 2D games don't use effects like that. I'm convinced that the reason 3D games tend to overuse cheesy effects is to distract from how bad the polygon models look without them.
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janus
Mage


Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 464
Location: Issaquah, WA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:11 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Rainer Deyke wrote:
janus wrote:
You're complaining about sloppy shading when 2D games all have static, inconsistent light sources? Uhhh...


I'd rather have good static shading than bad dynamic shading. If the static nature of typical 2D shading bothers you, just use bump maps.

Quote:
I can see your point on the 'cheesy photoshop filter' bit, but it's not as if similar effects would look any better in 2D...


The effect would look equally bad in 2D, but most 2D games don't use effects like that. I'm convinced that the reason 3D games tend to overuse cheesy effects is to distract from how bad the polygon models look without them.

Well, I don't really understand your response about 2D lighting vs 3D lighting, but I do agree with you that 3D games seem to abuse special effects more than 2D ones do.
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bay
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:49 am    Post subject: [quote]

janus wrote:
You can't do this in 2D.


something i definately am not interested in. =) obviously without 3d data you cant to appropriate shadins, whatever that "data" is.

.02$
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster


Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: [quote]

I had an intuition recently that artists perceive flows of cracking light energy--the kind you see in videogame graphics (like spells) and in comics--by visualizing the force currents that exist in our world, but don't produce light. To see the world in terms of force is kind of like seeing it in terms of those toys with the magnet shards that you organize with a magnet of the opposite pole to make pictures with. Or to see it in terms of a magnetoscope. Imagine the wind breaking forth light as it hits the trees, or a radiant shockwave echoing across the surface of a table after you pound your fist against it.

I intuit, that just possibly, given that it has proved so difficult for we as a race to bend the flow of light in mid-air, that any mechanation that could produce the bends of light we see in the visualizations of magic and energy that we see in games and comics, would indeed produce the effects we associate with those visualizations. That is to say, for us to see the image of something as light, in midair, it must have physical correspondence, and that the producer force of such a light pattern as we could see in midair is dual to the physical reality of the pattern. So to say, if in midair I were to see the pattern of light that corresponds to that which would reflect off of you, then in effect I would be witnessing you relative to myself, and experimentally there is congruence between the "you" as a pattern of light, and the "real" physical you.

So if we understand what artistic origin of these graphical effects is, is it legitimate to critique them?
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janus
Mage


Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 464
Location: Issaquah, WA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:16 pm    Post subject: [quote]

LordGalbalan wrote:
I had an intuition recently that artists perceive flows of cracking light energy--the kind you see in videogame graphics (like spells) and in comics--by visualizing the force currents that exist in our world, but don't produce light. To see the world in terms of force is kind of like seeing it in terms of those toys with the magnet shards that you organize with a magnet of the opposite pole to make pictures with. Or to see it in terms of a magnetoscope. Imagine the wind breaking forth light as it hits the trees, or a radiant shockwave echoing across the surface of a table after you pound your fist against it.

I intuit, that just possibly, given that it has proved so difficult for we as a race to bend the flow of light in mid-air, that any mechanation that could produce the bends of light we see in the visualizations of magic and energy that we see in games and comics, would indeed produce the effects we associate with those visualizations. That is to say, for us to see the image of something as light, in midair, it must have physical correspondence, and that the producer force of such a light pattern as we could see in midair is dual to the physical reality of the pattern. So to say, if in midair I were to see the pattern of light that corresponds to that which would reflect off of you, then in effect I would be witnessing you relative to myself, and experimentally there is congruence between the "you" as a pattern of light, and the "real" physical you.

So if we understand what artistic origin of these graphical effects is, is it legitimate to critique them?


w
h
a
t
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole


Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: [quote]

more psuedo philosophy. It's a common trait to people that enjoy post-modern literature and are usually english majors of some sort. Mister Frosty used to spout similiar sorts of nonsense from time to time. It's basically all just intellectual hot air made to sound impressive but actually has no substance, mostly because of his innarute understanding of such things.

Like his whole things on substrings and planks.
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Xmark

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biggerUniverse
Mage


Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 326
Location: A small, b/g planet in the unfashionable arm of the galaxy

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: [quote]

LordGalbalan wrote:
That is to say, for us to see the image of something as light, in midair, it must have physical correspondence, and that the producer force of such a light pattern as we could see in midair is dual to the physical reality of the pattern. So to say, if in midair I were to see the pattern of light that corresponds to that which would reflect off of you, then in effect I would be witnessing you relative to myself, and experimentally there is congruence between the "you" as a pattern of light, and the "real" physical you.

So if we understand what artistic origin of these graphical effects is, is it legitimate to critique them?


Um. You're saying seeing me is percieving the light that reflects off of me. Ok. You can't perceive me in the dark. So what? Anyway, what you tried to get at was that "reality" isn't what we perceive.

LordGalbalan wrote:
I intuit, that just possibly, given that it has proved so difficult for we as a race to bend the flow of light in mid-air, that any mechanation that could produce the bends of light we see in the visualizations of magic and energy that we see in games and comics, would indeed produce the effects we associate with those visualizations.


You live on a big ball that bends light, and also does other "magical" things like frame dragging.

Quote:
Imagine the wind breaking forth light as it hits the trees, or a radiant shockwave echoing across the surface of a table after you pound your fist against it.


You're right, I can't see those things. That's why I can feel and hear, respectively.
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Happy
JonA's American snack pack


Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:27 am    Post subject: [quote]

LordGalbalan wrote:
I had an intuition recently that artists perceive flows of cracking light energy--the kind you see in videogame graphics (like spells) and in comics--by visualizing the force currents that exist in our world, but don't produce light. To see the world in terms of force is kind of like seeing it in terms of those toys with the magnet shards that you organize with a magnet of the opposite pole to make pictures with. Or to see it in terms of a magnetoscope. Imagine the wind breaking forth light as it hits the trees, or a radiant shockwave echoing across the surface of a table after you pound your fist against it.

I intuit, that just possibly, given that it has proved so difficult for we as a race to bend the flow of light in mid-air, that any mechanation that could produce the bends of light we see in the visualizations of magic and energy that we see in games and comics, would indeed produce the effects we associate with those visualizations. That is to say, for us to see the image of something as light, in midair, it must have physical correspondence, and that the producer force of such a light pattern as we could see in midair is dual to the physical reality of the pattern. So to say, if in midair I were to see the pattern of light that corresponds to that which would reflect off of you, then in effect I would be witnessing you relative to myself, and experimentally there is congruence between the "you" as a pattern of light, and the "real" physical you.

So if we understand what artistic origin of these graphical effects is, is it legitimate to critique them?


Okay. I've just had an intuition that you're retarded and you need to stop posting.
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: [quote]

I actually thought it was quite an amuzing read.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster


Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject: [quote]

Guys, I was trying to explain, from the perspective of the unconscious, why we see the effects we do in videogames, and why there is so little originality. I mean, look at Paladin's Quest: horrible graphics, weird music, strange style. And the reason we see those things as "horrible" and "weird" and "strange" is because our mind looks at it and realizes that it has no basis on logic, conscious or unconscious. To live you've got to know that you live, and you can only know that you are alive in a concrete world that allows you to have knowledge, don't you think? We look at Paladin's Quest, and see that things don't add up from an unconscious perspective of "completeness". Just like you hear a lie from somebody, and you know that they're leading you on, and you know what their intentions are, but you know in a way that you don't know how to put your finger on it, that you are correct in your assertion that you are being led on and lied to. Art is the same way: the mind pieces together the parts that are missing when you try to make something, and if you don't make it just so, then it doesn't seem real to you, and it doesn't seem real to everybody else. That is, I think, more than anything else, the mark of a talented artist: to be able to imagine something that is not real, and render it such that it seems real on its own terms.
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