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bay
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa
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 Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: GBA/DS development? |
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just curious who here is playing with GBA/DS development, most likely for a RPG engine/game?
i believe in the past i saw mandrake doing some GBA work, and I think I just saw DeveloperX mention something as well.
who all is working on GBA/DS related projects? what are they? what is your development/debugging environment/toolchains?
do you have anything to show of your progress? what have you learned thusfar programming for such a console? have you found yourself hitting limitations yet?
i'm asking for my personal reasons, as well as others since i've started a gig programming for the DS.
before this i've bought a linker for the GBA and was playing a bit with using some toolchains based on gcc crosscompiling to ARM. i didn't have enough time to really get into it homebrew style, so i'm hoping to hear of others doing more than me =)
cheers.
.02$
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Truth be told, one of my main thrusts for making the Coalition Game Library has been to provide a free basis on which people can make GBA games. By concentrating on the algorithms that make the game flow instead of concentrating on the hardware interface, it should be easier to organize a game's pieces (battles, menus, maps, music, etc.) into finished products independent of the platform. As for GBA specific development, I've thought about it a lot, but nothing yet.
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: GBA/DS development? |
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| bay wrote: | just curious who here is playing with GBA/DS development, most likely for a RPG engine/game?
i believe in the past i saw mandrake doing some GBA work, and I think I just saw DeveloperX mention something as well.
who all is working on GBA/DS related projects? what are they? what is your development/debugging environment/toolchains?
do you have anything to show of your progress? what have you learned thusfar programming for such a console? have you found yourself hitting limitations yet?
i'm asking for my personal reasons, as well as others since i've started a gig programming for the DS.
before this i've bought a linker for the GBA and was playing a bit with using some toolchains based on gcc crosscompiling to ARM. i didn't have enough time to really get into it homebrew style, so i'm hoping to hear of others doing more than me =)
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I use DevKitAdvance, and a custom-made batch-file development environment.
I also have a pre-written library of GBA startup game code that I use for each of my projects.
I don't have enough time to work on them as of late though.
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Principal Software Architect
Rambling Indie Games, LLC
See my professional portfolio
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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I started out with GBA programming using a gcc port, then tried out dragonbasic, which was actually a lot more comprehensive. But GBA programming has little potential, since you can't actually DO anything with your game outside of a linker cart or an emulator.
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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Ren
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 130
Location: turn around...
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Someone should do something about PSP devving - burning UMD's is proberbly pretty cheap, and if it's as simple as an OS hack (which is totally possible, I remember an article about a game that updated your OS to prevent something or another while you were playing it) to get homebrews working it could be a neat platform to dev for. Slightly OT, but nevermind, heh.
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ren-tek.net : BGC games and more!
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Considering that the PSP has a built-in browser, couldn't DHTML be described as a homebrew platform for it? Or does it not have DHTML included?
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bay
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| LordGalbalan wrote: | | Considering that the PSP has a built-in browser, couldn't DHTML be described as a homebrew platform for it? Or does it not have DHTML included? |
meh, that's not really developing for the platform.. rather that's developing for a virtual machine (..ish..) whose constraints should hopefully be that for the platform (ie: screen size)
.02$
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INTJ
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bay
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| nodtveidt wrote: | | I started out with GBA programming using a gcc port, then tried out dragonbasic, which was actually a lot more comprehensive. But GBA programming has little potential, since you can't actually DO anything with your game outside of a linker cart or an emulator. |
i think that's rather incorrect, why do you feel this way?
if you are talking about the nintendo header, dragonbasic used to include it. if you are talking about not being able to push your game out on carts unless you are licensed by nintendo and have some money... that or start a company like tengen did back in the NES days and make your own carts! (rock on, i still thought my gauntlet cart was teh bomb)...
then again.. if you feel this way, you probably don't support much anyone developing anything that doesn't run on intel x86 pcs... i dunno who it was, but that guy making pc engine (tg16) games.. thats good stuff right there, maybe completely useless to people that don't want to run an emulator to play your game, but then again, maybe you aren't targeting them to play it.
i know a guy that worked for a GB development company that didn't use any of the official development tools to save money. when they were done with the development they went through the publisher and had the ROM built appropriately, manufactured, etc. so using the homebrew and ghetto chinese linkers can actually end up as a finished product.. crazy huh?
i'm actually interested in gamepark, but the old console is now discontinued... i think the new handheld will run old code?.. and all that was on smartmedia? (i think) cards.. which made developing for them (an ARM based handheld like the GBA) and actually pushing out a release for people to play ON their handhelds, was possible. great idea.
.02$
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| bay wrote: | i think that's rather incorrect, why do you feel this way?
if you are talking about the nintendo header, dragonbasic used to include it. if you are talking about not being able to push your game out on carts unless you are licensed by nintendo and have some money... that or start a company like tengen did back in the NES days and make your own carts! (rock on, i still thought my gauntlet cart was teh bomb)... |
While it's fun to monkey with, a serious development cannot really take place. You cannot mass produce cartridges, and unlicensed usage of the header is illegal. It's different today than it was in Tengen's days of battling with the big N.
| bay wrote: | | then again.. if you feel this way, you probably don't support much anyone developing anything that doesn't run on intel x86 pcs... i dunno who it was, but that guy making pc engine (tg16) games.. thats good stuff right there, maybe completely useless to people that don't want to run an emulator to play your game, but then again, maybe you aren't targeting them to play it. |
That "someone" is ME! :) And the reason I selected that particular console is twofold: first, the hardware is advanced enough to produce some serious games, and secondly, distribution of your games is little problem, since the machine uses CDROMs that can be easily reproduced, and since there's no copy protection on the machine, and there's a kickass compiler for it, it's an extremely viable platform.
| bay wrote: | | i'm actually interested in gamepark, but the old console is now discontinued... i think the new handheld will run old code?.. and all that was on smartmedia? (i think) cards.. which made developing for them (an ARM based handheld like the GBA) and actually pushing out a release for people to play ON their handhelds, was possible. great idea. |
The GP32 was shut out by Nintendo. Gamepark then split into two seperate firms, each will produce their own new handheld...the team who designed the original GP32 have a much more powerful version coming out, whereas some of the dolts from the old company have their own firm called Gamepark Holdings, and they have a completely shitty new version...
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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bay
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 138
Location: new jersey, usa
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nodtveidt wrote: | | While it's fun to monkey with, a serious development cannot really take place. You cannot mass produce cartridges, and unlicensed usage of the header is illegal. It's different today than it was in Tengen's days of battling with the big N. |
well, serious development can for sure take place.. i dont consider the marketing and distrobution of a game to be part of the development process.
there are a couple things that can happen when you've done some awesome homebrew development for GBA/DS.
1) bring your game to a game company / publisher for
a) possible interest of sale / further development deal
b) possible acquisition contract to allow licensing and...
c) possible publishing deal
2) bring your game to a game company for
a) portfolio/examples of GBA/DS coding giving you an edge as a junior programmer with systems experience
3) contact agents that can shop around your demo in its homebrew state to gain interest of publishers
i for one, now that i work for a game company and have some contacts building is to expand my game ideas (currently 2 that can be very cool GBA/DS games).. so im excited. granted, it takes alot to make a game, and a lot more to make a published game profitable.
now rewinding on this, i don't think you have to have a publishable game to have your development efforts "worth" it. there will always be your satisfaction, as well as those like-minded that will go crazy over your work as well... we call them "enthusiasts" =p
| nodtveidt wrote: | | That "someone" is ME! :) And the reason I selected that particular console is twofold: first, the hardware is advanced enough to produce some serious games, and secondly, distribution of your games is little problem, since the machine uses CDROMs that can be easily reproduced, and since there's no copy protection on the machine, and there's a kickass compiler for it, it's an extremely viable platform. |
i think that's really cool, but i don't own a tg16. i'll probably never own one (tho perhaps i will now ... =p), but if i could play your game via emulation i would.
can you point me in the direction of dev tools for the pce/tg16?
| nodtveidt wrote: | | The GP32 was shut out by Nintendo. Gamepark then split into two seperate firms, each will produce their own new handheld...the team who designed the original GP32 have a much more powerful version coming out, whereas some of the dolts from the old company have their own firm called Gamepark Holdings, and they have a completely shitty new version... |
what do you mean by shut out?.. again, any links on this subject? (i'll be googling in a minute at any rate..)
so you say that there are now two gamepark companies?.. one making a new gp32 and the other making the new gp2x? i'm confused, i gotta read up on this. i do want to get these to tinker with =)
| DeveloperX wrote: | I use DevKitAdvance, and a custom-made batch-file development environment.
I also have a pre-written library of GBA startup game code that I use for each of my projects. |
whats your library consist of? care to share any (code/binary)? or perhaps just at least a list of features?
.02$
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bay wrote: | well, serious development can for sure take place.. i dont consider the marketing and distrobution of a game to be part of the development process.
there are a couple things that can happen when you've done some awesome homebrew development for GBA/DS.
1) bring your game to a game company / publisher for
a) possible interest of sale / further development deal
b) possible acquisition contract to allow licensing and...
c) possible publishing deal
2) bring your game to a game company for
a) portfolio/examples of GBA/DS coding giving you an edge as a junior programmer with systems experience
3) contact agents that can shop around your demo in its homebrew state to gain interest of publishers |
It's a gamble for sure, and there's no way you know that your many hours of hard work are going to go anywhere outside of your own PC or, if you're lucky, the PCs of anyone who has a GBA emulator. In other words...its potential distribution is never guaranteed to be worth your time. We don't tend to like to write games that no one will see, right? :)
| bay wrote: | i for one, now that i work for a game company and have some contacts building is to expand my game ideas (currently 2 that can be very cool GBA/DS games).. so im excited. granted, it takes alot to make a game, and a lot more to make a published game profitable.
now rewinding on this, i don't think you have to have a publishable game to have your development efforts "worth" it. there will always be your satisfaction, as well as those like-minded that will go crazy over your work as well... we call them "enthusiasts" =p |
Satisfaction is okay I guess...but I think I personally passed that stage many years ago. :) Like many others, satisfaction now comes when you know your game is in the hands of others who can enjoy it as it was intended to be enjoyed. This is tremendously difficult to do on the GBA.
| bay wrote: | i think that's really cool, but i don't own a tg16. i'll probably never own one (tho perhaps i will now ... =p), but if i could play your game via emulation i would.
can you point me in the direction of dev tools for the pce/tg16? |
Sure...
http://www.zeograd.com/
Zeograd here develops HuC, the only know C compiler for the console. He also develops Hu-Go!, a very good emulator. In addition, his site has a lot of examples written by PCE sceners, although many are quite old.
http://www.magicengine.com/
This is the site of Magic Engine, the best PCE emulator in the world, hands-down. Daid Michel, the main developer, also developed the first working full assembler for the platform, called Magic Kit, which has since been incorporated into HuC.
| bay wrote: | | what do you mean by shut out?.. again, any links on this subject? (i'll be googling in a minute at any rate..) |
Nintendo's propaganda campaign is what stopped the GP32 from hitting western shores. The GP32 is vastly superior to the GBA, and with their massive bank account, Nintendo was able to bully GamePark out of a potential US release, where it would have been hugely successful and could have easily trounced the GBA, which right now is Nintendo's largest source of income.
| bay wrote: | | so you say that there are now two gamepark companies?.. one making a new gp32 and the other making the new gp2x? i'm confused, i gotta read up on this. i do want to get these to tinker with =) |
I heard about it awhile ago from a GP32 enthusiast who wanted to know if I was going to get into coding it, since he knew I code consoles. Since distribution (again, this is important to me) isn't a problem for the GP32, it's a very viable platform. But it needs to be successful in the US for me to target it. If the newer machines make it here, then I'll be sure to code a game or two for it, but if not, then it's not worth my time...
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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Adam
Mage
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 416
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nintendo's propaganda campaign is what stopped the GP32 from hitting western shores. The GP32 is vastly superior to the GBA, and with their massive bank account, Nintendo was able to bully GamePark out of a potential US release, where it would have been hugely successful and could have easily trounced the GBA, which right now is Nintendo's largest source of income. |
I personally thought the GP32 was a weaker system than the GBA. No video RAM and no hardware sprite support if i recall correctly.
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Last edited by Adam on Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ren
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 130
Location: turn around...
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| nodtveidt wrote: | | Nintendo's propaganda campaign is what stopped the GP32 from hitting western shores. The GP32 is vastly superior to the GBA, and with their massive bank account, Nintendo was able to bully GamePark out of a potential US release, where it would have been hugely successful and could have easily trounced the GBA, which right now is Nintendo's largest source of income. |
I doubt that. It's certainly fair to say that gamepark would be taking a slice out of nintendo's handeld pie, but there's no way it could have matched up to the GBA, not even close. Remember that the PSP is vastly superior to the DS in pretty much every catagory, except the controvercial control method, and nintendo's DS sales still remain a comfortable margin higher. Considering the manufacturer is Sony, leader of the home entertainment system for 2 generations, I doubt an unknown company could produce a system which would have outsold the GBA in the west. It's a Nintendo handheld, a title which apparently still carries some weight.
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ren-tek.net : BGC games and more!
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ren wrote: | | I doubt that. It's certainly fair to say that gamepark would be taking a slice out of nintendo's handeld pie, but there's no way it could have matched up to the GBA, not even close. Remember that the PSP is vastly superior to the DS in pretty much every catagory, except the controvercial control method, and nintendo's DS sales still remain a comfortable margin higher. Considering the manufacturer is Sony, leader of the home entertainment system for 2 generations, I doubt an unknown company could produce a system which would have outsold the GBA in the west. It's a Nintendo handheld, a title which apparently still carries some weight. |
It's certainly debatable, but the fact remains that Nintendo wouldn't have gone on such an anti-GP32 campaign if they weren't threatened by it. Remember that the GBA was Nintendo's bread and butter at the time (and still mainly is, really). The PSP need not compete with the DS anyways, because the PS2 has a similar margin of sales advantage over the GC.
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| bay wrote: | whats your library consist of? care to share any (code/binary)? or perhaps just at least a list of features?
.02$ |
well, not opening the source for it..............yet. possibly later after I've made a few games with it.
features:
* minimum of 10-lines of code required to get a fully-functional 'empty game' running
* animated sprites are easy as specifying the graphics data, and some parameters such as the 'virtual z depth' index
* pixel*pixel scrolling map engine supporting up to 128x128 maps with up to 3 layers.
* somewhat unstable input layer (was too tired to iron out the bugs when I wrote it)
not part of the library, but a few 'quickie' tools I made:
* pngconvert - converts png files to a gba gfx header file
* spritetool - takes a text file with sprite animation configuration and a graphics file and outputs a header file
* mapper - seriously basic map editor
features I plan on adding to the library:
* audio support
* more stable input
I cannot provide the tools, nor the sourcecode to anyone at this time, so don't ask. :)
Overall, its quite functional, and usable....my only major problem is lack-of-time for development lately. :(
Hopefully, I'll be able to get more time for development soon....
Man time got away from me. 12:23 AM now...goodnight guys.
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Rambling Indie Games, LLC
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