[Z Gravity]

I just though I should put this down somewhere and see what other people think.
I've just been thinking about where the actual "role playing" comes into a typical console rpg. I've been noticing that as I get farther into a game, there's more and more game involved, and not as much interaction with the fictional world. Not that the actual interface or plot or style change at all, but somehow the attitude of immersiveness just dissipates gradually. I think I noticed it most when I was playing Zelda 64... In the beginning of the game I figured that it wasn't really polite to barge into people's houses and open chests and break stuff in search of treasure, and so I left a lot of things untouched. I'd stop to talk to people for no reason, stuff like that. Later on though it's perfectly natural to attack people's chickens and go around jumping off roofs (not to mention swinging swords all over the place...). I think it's mainly the fact that beyond talking to people, almost everything you do is action oriented. That's just the nature of the game, and so while the game is still fun, and the storyline is just as good, the "acting" of the player kinda goes downhill.

In a more action-oriented genre, like tactical shooters, etc., the action elements do a lot to create the mood as well as make up the actual "game". As far as "acting" goes, you can sneak around cautiously, run around with guns blazing, or whatever, and your interactions with the world, limited as it is, are comparatively very rich and complex. Games like Max Payne or Dead to Rights go all out for action and style, and you end up with a character whose actions can be downright cinematic.

The thing I'm wondering is if there's a way to create a less action-oriented game with those same sort of qualities. There's a certain amount of stuff you can do in a typical rpg to act out your roles, like whether you rush through an area in order to rescue somebody (when in reality you could go off in a totally different direaction and they'd still be waiting for you hours later), slow down and talk to everyone when you're just hanging around town, walking instead of running when you're in a palace or a church, or just deciding not to grab things from treasure chests in people's houses.

But beyond that, most of the actions that make up the game itself are related to either character building/equipping or actual combat. Mini-games can spice things up a little bit, but they can get a bit contrived at times (Squall floating through space to rescue Rinoa, that was actually pretty well done. I'm not sure it qualifies as a mini-game though). Anyway, like I was saying, there's not much you can do outside of triggering scripted events to really act out the character. Having choices in conversation is also a bonus, but generally it comes down to choosing the right answers to get what you want.

One game that had a sort of interesting take on it was Twinsen's Adventure, a sort of 2-and-a-half-D game where you could choose different "moods" as you walk around. They were actually fairly action-oriented (Normal, Aggressive, Athletic and Discreet, if I remember), but still you had some interesting moments where someone would upset you and you can choose to go into an aggressive mood and walk around growling at everyone....

So the idea here is if there'd be a good way to incorporate a bit of an emotional system into an rpg character, so that you can not only choose where to go and who to talk to, but how you'll actually look and act. It'd have to use fairly complex character graphics, I imagine, just to convey the mood a bit better.
But the real trick is to somehow make the emotions more than a visual element, and raise them into full-fledged game elements, otherwise they're more likely to get ignored. Maybe even have them affect even more than character reactions and relations.... Would it really be possible to have a game where good roleplaying (choosing emotions as well as simple actions) somehow coincides with effective gaming? Or would it even be necessary? Could a system like that exist in a small, linear rpg, just for the fun of it? Or would it need to result in a vast open-ended world simulation like Project Ego or something similar?

Lots of questions in that last paragraph, actually. :) Anyway, it's something I'm going to keep in mind for my own project, but I'm kinda thinking it might be interesting to base an entire game on the concept....

[Rainer Deyke]

I think the trick is to have player choices with reak consequences, especially story-based consequences (as opposed to gameplay consequences). If you steal from people, you might get extra stuff but the people will treat you like a thief and may sink into poverty. You might "win" the game this way but it might be a hollow victory. Or you might have to choose between two sides, neither of which is unambiguously "good" or "evil". I explored this to some extend in my mini-RPG Ghost of the Haunted Grove. Or maybe the player has to choose: rescue person A or rescue person B. When one of them is rescued, the other person dies. Things like that really allow the player to think "in character" as opposed to just killing monsters while passively watching the story unfold.

[Guest]

this of course also brings up the topic of wether or not RPG (consolePC) are really RPG....as the only Role playing that occurse is you move the char and watch his story unfold....I for one will fix this problem in my game (of course this has been planned from its conception)

[Mobius unlogged]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
sorry that was me above, blast this logging problem

[Mobius]

^^^^
right thats better
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It is best not to meddel in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with a varity of condoments.

[Modanung]

I thought it was better without the screen-filling-image. ;)

[Mobius]

oh look it works now....I'll have to shrink that later....its big but its cool to...but for now its gone and Frode looks like a lunatic..oops
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It is best not to meddel in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with a varity of condoments.

[whitedoor]

One game Planescape: Torment did do a lot of stuff like making your character's stats really affect dialog. And not just you Chr, but your Int and your alignment. for example I played first with a really stupid fighter and he always talked slow.. and had limited dialog options. Most people did react kindly towards my character however becuase he was a good person, however there were some evil npcs that attacked me on sight. You could also choose to do things like 'Lie' when talking at it will do a check against your Chr to see if you tricked the other person. ;)

I think the problem with this system is it requires massive dialog trees for every character in the game.

What we are looking at here is a major difference between the classic concepts of most PC RPGs and console RPGs. As a designer you only have so much time, so in many console RPGs the designers seem to have focused on plot and story depth. Designers of many PC RPGs have hundreds of options and flexible dialog systems, but at times the plot can seem quite shallow or confusing. Of course this is generalising things, there are a several games that offer both in good amounts.

You also have two kinds of choices.. choices that affect the short term of a game and choices that affect the long term. PC rpgs normally have heaps of the first one.. but just like console RPGs normally there is nothing you can do to really affect where you go with the plot.

Like for example in the first one... you might bribe a guard to let you in to a castle.. or you might kill him.. or you might find some papers to let yourself in.. but in the end you are still in the castle.. even though the short term results of each of those choices might have resulted in different rewards or loses.

In an example of the second one.. aftering killing the king of a kingdom.. do you: A. kill the heir and rule in his place B. return rule to the rightful heir C. kill the heir and leave the country to deal with the chaos. Each of these would affect both the short term and certain moments right through the rest of the game.

I think that idea for an emotion system could be a really great idea though. It could a nice balance between volume of work and player choice. You could also record these emotions in a table for each major section of a game.. and depending on the results it could slowly affect the characters personality.. maybe.. :)

[MJZ]

If this says MJZ, I'm not him, I'm mandrake (seems to be a huge problem with logging in....might have something top do with IP's, I'm working on it)....anyway, white_door, you really hit the nail on the head. all that stuff about PC vs Console RPG's was right on the money. I think alot of console gamer's think that these ideas (ie: more player freedom) is an original idea, but PC RPG's have been doing it for years. And the whole sacrifice of the plot for freedom is right on the nose two. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if the characters have more freedom, the plot WILL suffer. The only game I saw a good balance of this was in Ultima 7. Anyway, and emotion system would be cool. There was one in BOF2 that worked very well.

[Mobius]

oh...that really makes me feel better about my game...basically you have complete freedom to do what you want but it really has no story to it all my friends keep asking me what the plot is...I just say "beats me" there really is no way other to explain it....technically you make your own story as you play....ooo that give me an Idea, kinda like Black/Whites story scroll in the citadel I couls have the game write the story of the player as he she plays...oooooooo......I suspose I'll put some quest like things in it but....
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It is best not to meddel in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with a varity of condoments.