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twinsen
Stephen Hawking


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:56 am    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
Final Fantasy / the Animatrix, virtually all digital hi-quality movies do it by hand, because it is more realistic...


That's fine if you've got a dedicated team of 3D modellers who you can pay to spend hours day in and day out modelling each strand of hair on a characters head. Mocap definitely speeds up the production process, sure iit may not be realisitic, but at least it gives you the basic bone animation. You can always tidy up the animations afterwards.

As for the ping-pong ball and video camera. Theres always the problem of the balls becoming obscured during certain moves, and you would need more than one camera to capture the points in three dimensions. Could become a mathematical nightmare to interpolate. But who knows, I might get bored one day and decide to work out a way of doing it cheaply. After I finish this RPG engine of mine of course :)
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:55 am    Post subject: [quote]

There's actually a good reason why the companies that make stuff like that are huge. If you tried to do anything that complex with just a handful of people, it would take many many years.

Think about a company of 100 people working full-time on a project like that, say it takes them one year. For a video game comparison, thats about what it took to make FF7.

Thats 50weeks x 40hours x 100people = 20,000 man-hours of work

For a single person working says 20 hours a week as a part-time thing, you're talking about 200 years to finish that project. With 10 people, it's still 20 years. Your technology standard is so out-of-date at completion that the product is pretty much laughed at. Or, you can constantly re-do things to keep up to date and never finish.
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:20 am    Post subject: [quote]

Thats one of the reasons I'm glad that I'm a programmer and not an artist. It can takes tens of thousands of man hours to develop the graphical assets for a game. But by comparison actually developing the engine for a game is much faster. Look at the credit of any game, there will be heaps of artists and modellers and CG people, but there will be one lead programmer, a couple of tools programmers and some assistants.

While developing the story and content of a huge game may be beyond the scope of an individual. Developing the game engine (while taking a little longer) is definitely not unachievable.
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BigManJones
Scholar


Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:21 am    Post subject: [quote]

Well, I'm still trying to figure out how to project one infinitally thin, solid triangle into the middle of my room. Thats all you need for a holodeck, just one little solid triangle....
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:25 am    Post subject: [quote]

glBegin(GL_TRIANGLES);

glVertex3f( 0.0f, 1.0f, 0.0f);
glVertex3f(-1.0f,-1.0f, 0.0f);
glVertex3f( 1.0f,-1.0f, 0.0f);

glEnd();

TA-DA! Triangle :) I love OpenGL
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:50 am    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
While developing the story and content of a huge game may be beyond the scope of an individual. Developing the game engine (while taking a little longer) is definitely not unachievable.


That's probably true, but then professional game engines are usually a lot better about being compliant over as broad a set of technical specifications as possible, which can eat up a lot of time. Not in the same scale as the art though.

Those 100-man teams are one reason why I don't really have any interest in getting into the mainstream video game business though. I mean, talk about a cog-in-a-machine type of feeling. I'd much rather make 2D old-school games in a small team than be a part of that madness.

Sure, you can say "I helped make that (presumably) awesome game", but what did you REALLY do? Maybe a couple power up graphics? Or one or two character models? I just don't see the job satisfaction in that. Sounds like pretty much any other high-tech office job to me hehe.
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:56 am    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
That's probably true, but then professional game engines are usually a lot better about being compliant over as broad a set of technical specifications as possible, which can eat up a lot of time. Not in the same scale as the art though.


I tend to disagree, thats the whole point of a hardware abstraction layer (DirectX/OpenGL). If you develop a game using one of these API it then hands the responsibility over to the hardware manufacturers to ensure their hardware is compliant. And its in their best interests to ensure it is, because they'll lose sales otherwise. I'm not saying its not harder than having a team of programmers, but its not unfeasible for an indie programmer to develop a game and successfully pitch it to a publishing house. Let them take care of any compability issues :)
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[Neodog] Solar
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Solarland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 5:58 pm    Post subject: [quote]

The time is worth it, though
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Mobius
Monkey-Butler


Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 56
Location: denile

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:20 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Nothing (yet) comes close to the amout of detail the human eye/brain has for determing if movemet of a character is right.
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:36 pm    Post subject: [quote]

YAY I'm not a wandering minstrel anymore :) But umm yeah, I agree nothing does come close to realistic animation yet. I suppose the FF movie was about the closest I think 3D has come to realistic in terms of animation (the characters still looked like they were made of plastic though).
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:18 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Ranting time.

Quote:
I agree nothing does come close to realistic animation yet

I guess I would agree, but I mean "Realistic?" As long as we're talking about 2-dimensional projections on to small rectangular screens (or big ones for that matter), nothing will ever be very realistic. Two elements that add the most realism to a scene are depth perception and perepheral vision.

But beside that point, I personally believe that the striving for realism in gaming graphics is a flawed goal. The more "realistic" the graphics are, the more the LACK of realism in the controls the player is given and the goals they are expected to achieve become glaring and obnoxious.

Games are NOT real, and they never will be. Real life is only so fun, it has to be distorted into an abstract set of rules and priniciples in order to make for compelling gameplay (e.g. RPGs). "Unrealistic" graphics (read: graphics that are abstracted and do not literally resemble the things they are meant to represent) help the player to see the world in the way in which he/she can interact with it, which is in a limited capacity according to an abstract set of game rules, and using an intermediary piece of hardware.

Thats not to say there isnt a place for advanced 3D graphics in all of that, but they should be focused on creating abstract visual effects, not making anything "realistic" (e.g. "Wow, its like I'm ACTUALLY mowing my lawn!!")

I understand I'm in a complete minority here, but thats my point of view.

It's also my POV that this topic is getting ludicrously long and off-target. hehe
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:20 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
It's also my POV that this topic is getting ludicrously long and off-target. hehe


Aren't most of the topics on here?
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Mobius
Monkey-Butler


Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 56
Location: denile

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:54 am    Post subject: [quote]

perhapse this discussion doesn't only involve what "spells" do but also what the charaters do (hence the insane amout of conversation oabout it) duing the spell such as gestures and such....making it most assuadly ligimate.
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