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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
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 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 2:08 am Post subject: |
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On the topic of morals, is it morally ok to teach fear as the one reason for doing good?
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Just wanted to say I am shocked and amazed this thread hasn't started a flame war yet. Usually, threads like this quickly devolve into devouts on either side browbeating those who differ. Apparently, RPG developers (on this list anyway) are a relatively homogenous group of science-based agnostics.
I wonder: does a willingness to "play god" by creating worlds, universes, and populations somehow correlate to the worldviews expressed here? When you engage in the act of creation yourself - especially using technology - does it somehow negate the primal urge towards mysticism?
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:45 am Post subject: |
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In all the jobs I've ever had, I've never run into a religious programmer. Could be something to do with the type of mindset a person requires to actually program a computer. It's a very logical and procedural sort of skill, whereas all the religions I've seen seem to be all over the place. Shrugs.
I think Deep Thought put it best... "42"
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In all the jobs I've ever had, I've never run into a religious programmer. |
Programmers will rule this world, mark my words.....
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:08 am Post subject: |
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*Runs down to the nearest church and adds a footnote to the end of the bible*
"Programmers will rule the world - Ninkazu"
There ya go, your words are marked :)
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:21 am Post subject: |
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I think this headline says it all:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s871472.htm
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Reason not withstanding the universe continues unabaited. It's history is terribly long and awfully difficult to understand even in its simplier moments, which are roughly speaking- the beginning, and the end. The wave harmonic theory of historical perception in its simpliest form states that history is an illusion caused by the passage of time, and that time is an illusion caused by the passage of history.
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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[Neodog] Solar
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Solarland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:20 am Post subject: |
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It's not a flame war because a programmer (aka god aka me) has made it so.
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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So you're god? I thought we'd all come to the conclusion that there was no god?
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I've been keeping myself out of this thread for a while now because I can really start to ramble about this kind of thing, but I made up my mind now so here goes.
| Quote: | | On the topic of morals, is it morally ok to teach fear as the one reason for doing good? |
Speaking as a man who was originally raised an Irish Catholic, I can readily testify:
NO, it is NOT OK to teach FEAR as a "reason" to do good.
My mother is always talking about how religion teachs people to be good, and moral. Yet, my father and I are both as aetheistic as they come, and she certainly never complains about our behavior. As far as I'm concerned, no religion (of any creed) has any kind of direct relationship with morality.
Then again, what is morality? Part of the problem here is that often religions seek through dogma to define their OWN morality, so of course anyone who follows that religion (and actually understands it, which can be pretty rare) will be "moral" in some sense simply by acting according to their religion's dogma.
But when you start following dogma you can often treat people pretty badly by not seeking out the specific nature of each situation and evaluating the morality of your actions on a case by case basis. Morality is never perfect, and sometimes it fails as a concept to even apply to situation. Dont even get me started on the existance (or lack thereof) of good and evil...
| Quote: | | Without morals, this world would be one big nuclear wasteland by now, most likely. |
I think the main reason why we havent blasted one another into the stoneage with nukes is not morality but simply well done cost/benefit analysis by world leaders.
My personal feeling is that if you need the fear of an angry god to get you to try treating people with decency, you're a pretty pathetic person. But then, many people ARE pathetic, so god-fearing religions are probably a good thing to have around to help pick up some of that slack.
All I'm saying is that, as someone with a BA in Philosophy, I find that religions are certainly nothing to aspire to.
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[Neodog] Solar
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Solarland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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(Regarding the nature of evil)
"Evil? Evil is forcing people to act against their nature. Evil is to be filled with ambition. To be evil is to strive to make the world a better place. To be evil is to live worrying about what is right. To be evil is to hold anything with higher regards than it deserves."
(Regarding the nature of good)
"Good? Good is to allow people to act naturally. Good is to lack the stain of ambition. Good is to leave things alone. Goodness is a quality where one appreciates things for what they are, not what you want them to be."
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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And what if I strive to make the world a better place by leaving things alone? ;-)
Oh and, I wholly agree with the thousand knives.
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Jihgfed Pumpkinhead
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 259
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:11 pm Post subject: As for the Case of Science Vs. Religion |
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Ooh... I just found this thread, but don't worry, I won't be too long [EDIT: This is a bald faced lie! I'll be quite long.]
| Nephilim wrote: | | I wonder: does a willingness to "play god" by creating worlds, universes, and populations somehow correlate to the worldviews expressed here? When you engage in the act of creation yourself - especially using technology - does it somehow negate the primal urge towards mysticism? |
God, no! At least, not in my case. And not in most others, either, I suspect: very often, Science is mysticism.
Which, I guess, makes me the first here to bad-mouth Science and all that She stands for, or at least most of it. Often as not we believe what we're taught, and if we had lived a thousand years ago, we'd believe that all matter is composed of the four elements. That is I think undeniable; but the contentious point I'd like to make is that we'd most of us be just as well off stuck in the scientific Middle Ages, at least so far as "the pursuit of truth" is concerned.
John Stuart Mill said "an undefended truth is a dead truth" (or something like that: I'm paraphrasing), and Science is nothing but undefended truths. Or rather, the truths of Science are vigorously defended, but only by Scientists, only within closed circles. Science's emphasis on experimentation is laudable, but as I do not have a particle beam (or whatever) and a sheet of gold leaf, I have no way to prove the existence of the atom. And even if I had these things I do not have the knowledge which would allow me to make sense of the results of my experiments. As Science becomes more and more abstract, its truths get further and further out of my grasp. I may know what string theory proves, but I'll be damned if I know how or why or what purpose my knowledge serves.
My point is that Science provides no comfort other than that "some Scientist out there knows the answer". We are no better than mediaeval peasants taking the word of the priesthood because the priests are better educated and more intelligent. Even if the things Scientists reveal to us are true, even if matter is composed of atoms and light exhibits properties of both waves and particles, what does that matter? It is simply a dead truth sitting in our minds, a dead truth with no power of elucidation and of no benefit.
Furthermore, consider that every Religion has, at base, these two tenets, or something like them:
1. A sentient being created the universe.
2. We humans should strive serve Him (or his descendents).
Most religions add others but I think these can be recognized as the sine qua non of Religion (at least, of any Religion I can think of).
Whereas science has these fundamental tenets:
1. There is objective truth.
2. We humans should strive to uncover it.
I would argue that Science and Religion are but differences in degree. Both have their unprovable assumptions and both have their dicta dei.
We peasants go to Science for a sense of truth, a sense of order, a sense of wonder, and material benefit. These are precisely the things we look for in mysticism; and it is part of the reason that I say that Science is mysticism. In this last purpose, material benefit, I concede certainly that Science is vastly the better, but in all else Science is more or less equal to Religion, and decision between them is a matter, not of reason, but of faith.
Or at least that's how I look at it. Oops, I said I wasn't going to be too long, but I guess I lied.
Oh, yes, and while I'll agree that fear can't teach morality (not very well, at least), it is a powerful enforcer of morality. In fact I would say that the greatest incentive keep to the moral path is fear, fear of social disapproval.
And while we're throwing around pop-culture quotes... "As for the case of Science vs. Religion, I'm issuing a restraining order. Religion must stay 500 yards away from Science at all times."
Last edited by Jihgfed Pumpkinhead on Sat Jun 07, 2003 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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[Neodog] Solar
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Solarland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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"It won't be too long" ???
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