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BigManJones
Scholar
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 196
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 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My point is that Science provides no comfort other than that "some Scientist out there knows the answer". We are no better than mediaeval peasants taking the word of the priesthood because the priests are better educated and more intelligent. Even if the things Scientists reveal to us are true, even if matter is composed of atoms and light exhibits properties of both waves and particles, what does that matter? It is simply a dead truth sitting in our minds, a dead truth with no power of elucidation and of no benefit. |
Thats very true, but one key difference is the fact that we all have access to the knowledge, and with time and schooling we to can understand it. Its not as if the scientist/shamans are going to pose a question like: 'how many angels/atoms can fit on the head of a pin' then execute you for giving the wrong answer ala the Inquisition.
A few things disturb me deeply about modern society and one of the most disturbing is the growing gulf between science and the mainstream. Most people feel absolutely no connection with whats going on in the sciences to day. And the scientific community only encourages this. What is the common man to think when one week he reads that oat bran helps prevent heart disease and then the next week it causes colon cancer? Or how about the cold fusion hulabuloo a few years back that was a hoax? He thinks 'those scientist don't know crap'
My fear is this growing chasm will result in an 'anti technology/science backlash'. The roots of which are easy to see today in fundamentalist Christian religions (ie creation science)
Another thing that disturbs deeply me is the lack of attactive single women in my area, but thats a matter for a different thread...
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: As for the Case of Science Vs. Religion |
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| Jihgfed Pumpkinhead wrote: |
Furthermore, consider that every Religion has, at base, these two tenets, or something like them:
1. A sentient being created the universe.
2. We humans should strive serve Him (or his descendents).
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There are actually many religions for which this does not hold true, including Wicca, Discordianism, and Buddhism.
Personally I feel that morality should be kept separate from religion. If you need myths and rituals to justify your morality, it is broken. If your myths and rituals reduce to justifications of morality, they are broken.
As for science, it is useful as a personal tool for investigating the usefulness of a hypothesis. It becomes an obscenity when controlled by an ordained priesthood.
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BadMrBox
Bringer of Apocalypse
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 1022
Location: Dark Forest's of Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to interrupt but, Wicca... I dont believe that it is a religion.
I have had a teacher that has been a little into it, a woman of course, so I have a little insight of the subject, not to good but...
So if you (Rainer Deyke) could explain why you count it like a religion I'd be happy and more informed.
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| BadMrBox wrote: | | Sorry to interrupt but, Wicca... I dont believe that it is a religion. |
What else would it be, a toaster?
You and Pumpkinhead should get together. He defines religion so broadly that even Science - which is exclusively interested in the mundane - is a religion, while you are apparently excluding Wicca - which is all about spirituality, ritual, and mysticism. By the time this thread is done, the word "religion" isn't going to have any meaning at all.
Somebody should lock this thread before it erupts.
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Jihgfed Pumpkinhead
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 259
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:59 am Post subject: Revision: Science Is not Religion |
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| Nephilim wrote: | | Somebody should lock this thread before it erupts. |
I think we're all being fairly civil, and I certainly am sorry if anyone's been offended. You just say "Gee, I think that's a poor definition of relegion," and I reply "You're right, sorry, here's what I should have said," and I hope we can all be happy.
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | There are actually many religions for which this does not hold true |
I'm sorry, on re-reading my last post I find that I've spoken very poorly. I wasn't trying to define religion, simply trying to point out some commonalities between science and religion. I didn't mean to trivialize any religions which didn't fit into my little scheme. Sorry.
| BigManJones wrote: | | What is the common man to think when one week he reads that oat bran helps prevent heart disease and then the next week it causes colon cancer? [...] He thinks 'those scientist don't know crap' |
Honestly, my greater fear is that we start thinking "those scientists know everything."
The more I think about it the more I realize that I don't really have any problem with science, and that it's foolish to compare it seriously with religion: my argument is really with people who follow it as if it were a religion anyway. I fail to see how science can provide moral or spiritual guidance. It is, as Deyke says, a "tool for investigating the usefulness of a hypothesis", and doesn't contain any truths itself, it can only reveal them, and even then it can only reveal them in a scientific light.
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Jebediah
Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:50 am Post subject: My belief |
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My belief is that I dont know.
Not one person can tell you the meaning of life. Not one person can tell you what happens after life. Experience is believing. I wont believe in anything until I see it.
If hell is full of sin then it can't be that bad. Drugs, alcohol, sex and rock n roll. Heck....Im looking forward to it.
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- Jebediah
Nostalgic Studios
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[Neodog] Solar
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Solarland
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: As for the Case of Science Vs. Religion |
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| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | Jihgfed Pumpkinhead wrote: |
Furthermore, consider that every Religion has, at base, these two tenets, or something like them:
1. A sentient being created the universe.
2. We humans should strive serve Him (or his descendents).
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There are actually many religions for which this does not hold true, including Wicca, Discordianism, and Buddhism.
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Good to know that people still know that...
/me is wiccan
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I think, therefore I am... I think.
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| BadMrBox wrote: |
So if you (Rainer Deyke) could explain why you count it like a religion I'd be happy and more informed. |
Wicca is at its heart the worship of a god and a goddess (or just a goddess in the Dianic tradition) through ritual. This fits my definition of religion.
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[Neodog] Solar
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Solarland
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it's more like duality...
Wicca is such a free religion that one defines the religion self.
Mostly the duality... sometimes represented by two deities.
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I think, therefore I am... I think.
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Jebediah
Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:51 pm Post subject: Buddism |
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Buddism is not a religion. Its a way of life. Big difference I think. If I had a religion although....it would be buddism.
"Life is pain"
or was it "Pain is life"....cant remember
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- Jebediah
Nostalgic Studios
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Buddhism is a religion. Just think about it.
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Merriam Webster:
"Religion: [...] 4. a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"
Hell, I think you could even cover social "ISMs" like capitalism, communism, and socialism in under THAT definition. I'm not going to though.
It certainly covers the religious "ISMs" like buddhism and hinduism though. Both of which, unfortunately, get the bad and wrong reputation of actually being social ISMs due to the nature of their titles.
People here seem to be confused between religions featuring a creator-god as opposed to those who either have a pantheon of gods or only a god-like concept of enlightenment. By definition, religion does NOT call for the belief in the existance of an omnipotent creator-god.
Hinduism actually features all three of the above mentioned concepts.
Buddhism doesn't have gods per se (depends on the other relgions you mix it with), but it most definately features a "system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
Shintoism and many native North American religions feature animistic pantheons, worshipping land forms and physical phenomena. Ancient Greeks established a more "conceptual" or virtuistic pantheon, as did many early European "pagan" religions.
When it comes down to it, the only ones that pretty much stick to the meat-and-potatoes "single, creator-god" concept are Christians, Muslims and and Jews. The former two certainly comprise a large population of followers, but you're still missing a solid 50-60% of the world's religious population if you define religion as narrowly as some of you are suggesting.
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entivore
Bjørn's Arctic Bitch of the Frozen North
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 86
Location: michigan, usa
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:18 am Post subject: |
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I hadn't noticed this thread before or I would have replied earlier. I've only read the first page, but I'll go ahead and say my views now so as not to be tainted by having fresh opinions from others in the back of my mind.
First off, I don't believe in any gods, spirits, or other sentient beings. I don't think there are any aliens, but I don't discount the possibility, since we can't see very far into the universe. I don't believe in objective good or evil, just perspectives. I don't believe in free will, just cause-and-effect relationships. I believe that people who are afraid of nihilism don't understand it :P. I believe that contradicting viewpoints can both be valid due to the context and relative nature of viewpoints. I believe absolute truth can exist... within a context.
I believe humans are inherently cruel, just like all animals. I also believe that most humans don't believe themselves to be cruel, and will redirect their natural instincts in very silly ways, like this cute story of the two lovers who together slaughtered everyone around them to protect each other from potential danger.
I believe men and women are fundamentally different, but I won't go into detail so as not to offend anyone too much.
I believe that ultimately power prevails, and that all the irrationality that is fostered in the world can be explained logically when thought of in terms of it's practical effect to some powerful entity. Finally, of importance, I think evolution occurs and is a very powerful and wide-spreading pattern. I also believe that evolution is NOT leading creatures to become more intelligent, healthy, and happy, because evolution only optimizes creatures for the current moment, often at expense to the long term good.
I dunno how well that answers the question. Hehe. As for my life philosophy, it basically boils down to "Respect those who respect me" and "Fight back against those who fight me." One thing I will not tolerate is someone who hides behind some form of invunerability and takes shots at me. Needless to say I tend to avoid people I know are manipulative, since a spat with them leaves me looking like a villian. Oh yeah, I'm not afraid of death, but man, pain? Keep it away! I'm just a hardened wimp. I don't think my beliefs and attitude interact too much. The only reason I believe the things I do is because they make sense to me, and I like being right. My attitude is based more around how I'm feeling at the moment.
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