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XMark
Guitar playin' black mage


Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 870
Location: New Westminster, BC, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:33 am    Post subject: [quote]
Mandrake wrote:
I myself am giong into business for myself (got some $$$ so I can pull it off), doing vidz.


What are "vidz"?
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Abstract Productions
I PLAYS THE MUSIC THAT MAKES THE PEOPLES FALL DOWN!
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valderman
Mage


Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 334
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: [quote]
Quote:
there are games far more demeaning to women, and far more 'kinky' and obv portraying sex to sell.
BMXXX, anyone?
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter


Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:10 pm    Post subject: [quote]
Sirocco wrote:
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to playing DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball.

*pirate laugh* HAR HAR HARRR
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Happy
JonA's American snack pack


Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 200
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:22 am    Post subject: [quote]
XMark wrote:
Mandrake wrote:
I myself am giong into business for myself (got some $$$ so I can pull it off), doing vidz.


What are "vidz"?


Hopefully gay porn. Mandrake has one sexy body.
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Sirocco
Mage


Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 345
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:11 am    Post subject: [quote]
Whew... for a moment there I thought you were going to sling a quip involving both Dunric and gay porn. I'm tremendously relieved to see it's just about gay porn ;)

.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole


Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: [quote]
only if Dunric wears a Gimp suit.
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supergoat
Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess


Joined: 21 Dec 2002
Posts: 13
Location: in the smile of every newborn
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:28 am    Post subject: [quote]
edit: moved to OT thread

Last edited by supergoat on Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Noadi
Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess


Joined: 06 Dec 2002
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:38 am    Post subject: [quote]
Mandrake wrote:
and not only that, but why can't a woman also be a sexual creature without being a labelled a slut by you neo-feminists? Shouldn't a woman be proud of her body and enjoy her sexuality wihtou it having repressed? She shouldn't she have a right to feel sexual and alive? If we oppress images of women as sexual creatures than we are repressing one of the more natural and wonderfull things of womanhood- it's sensuality and spark.


Neo-feminist? Oh boy, that's probably the worst description I've ever heard applied to me. I might be a feminist but I don't go that far by any means. I'm a feminist in the sense that I think women shouldn't be made sexual objects just to sell a product, on the other hand I don't think men should either. But people can be sexy without being slutty or a sexual object. There is a HUGE difference between sexy and being slutty, most video games I've seen don't seem to understand there is a line there. Sexy is someone who owns their sexuality that is in complete control of it because it makes her happy not some little slut who looks good and wears skimpy clothes just to make men happy.

I feel sad that ffX-2 is so popular with girls since it tends to send the wrong message, even if it does get more girls into gaming. Granted I think Brittany Spears is far worse an influence on young girls than this game but it's still bothers me.

Now back on topic. I plan on going pro if I can, to a certain extent I have since I work on cell phone games. But I'm an artist I have this urge for people to see my work because I tae so much pride in it. I can't understand why anyone would get mad because someone wants to go pro.

What's worse:
1- Going pro and having a job you love or
2- Getting some other job you don't love as much to pay your bills and continuing to make amature games

To me it doesn't seem to be a choice.
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Tenshi
Everyone's Peachy Lil' Bitch


Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 386
Location: Newport News
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:46 am    Post subject: [quote]
- I was gonna let it drop... nothing personal Mandrake... but you know me. :)

Mandrake wrote:
FFx-2 is not a game made for teenage boys to drool over.

- That's real weird... considering that when I was reading an article about it in one of the Gaming Magazines my girlfriend had bought, the Developers specifically said they enhanced Yuna's image to give her more popularity. In fact, summing up what they said, "It works for Lara Croft, we figured it couldn't hurt to try it on Yuna". Hence where my point on Selling out comes from. Defend it all you want. THey claim the intentions of their own free will.

Quote:
If you had actually played it, you would understand that it is a game targeted at girls/women (specifically based on japanese pop culture and the pop culture of the teenage-20 something girls). In fact, most men I know (esp my brother who plays games just for cleavage and boobs) hate the game, and the more sexist they are the more the more they refer to it as a 'chic game'.

- That's weird... considering that on the forum I hang out at for "Women Gamers" it didn't get that lovely of a reception. If it's a chick game, it's based more-so towards little girls... not too many I have seen like it. And I have actually seen the game. We have it.

Quote:
If anything, you should both commend on how it is giving a positive, empowering portryal of women as a main character in an RPG, and one that shows women in a way that isn't sexist or demeaning. And the outfits (or rather, costumes) are no more demeaning to woman than Zangief's bare chest and rippling muscles are demeaning to men.

- Forgive me if I find the outfits lacking in sensibility. If they were so focused on empowerment, then why are the majority of the outfits heel-clad? Last I read (an article by a woman) the only way heels were empowering was for sexual attractiveness and attention-getting... where in contrast (according to her) heels are actually more of a submissive aspect for women to make themselves more appealing to men, because of the fact that it's not good for the spine...). In no way are heels suited for combat. At the very least, if the outfits are supposed to be empowering for women... what in the world is the point of the Swordsmen garment grid having heels?
- Sure, perhaps its it's empowering for a woman to think: "Hey, I can be a completely sexy supermodel lacking in any apparent muscle-mass and run around in heels beating the shit out of men who are obviously more built than I am." In order for a woman to be a true villainess at least half of her breasts must be exposed to the general public, because you're not evil unless you're almost naked.
- I'm sorry, but THIS is the direction of games.

Empowering. Gawd. I don't need a bra for those sacks of fat hanging off my chest, but I'm going to go perform some super-sumersaults and kick some male ass all the while looking like a perfectly f**kable pornstar.
- If that's the way women want their games, ('cause this is empowering to women..) , what's this woman doing different?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/15/technology/circuits/15desi.html?ex=1053662400&en=9cc1ec96ca7e7562&ei=5059&partner=AOL
( Actually, that's an abstract, but here's a quote, since I wrote a post on this a while back :
Quote:
FOR Nour Polloni, the lead producer of a video game that will feature a tomboyish teenage girl named Kya, it was out of the question.

"They wanted to put her in a string bikini," she said of the all-male, multinational creative team that is helping her bring virtual life to the game, Kya: Dark Lineage, due in November from Atari. As one of the few women working in video game design and production, said Ms. Polloni, a Kuwaiti, she had to exert her authority.

...

While Ms. Polloni, 28, acknowledges that sex may sell, she contends that if video games are ever to appeal to both sexes, female characters need to offer far more than digital skin, pinup polygons and jiggle algorithms.
)

Quote:
and not only that, but why can't a woman also be a sexual creature without being a labelled a slut by you neo-feminists? Shouldn't a woman be proud of her body and enjoy her sexuality wihtou it having repressed? She shouldn't she have a right to feel sexual and alive? If we oppress images of women as sexual creatures than we are repressing one of the more natural and wonderfull things of womanhood- it's sensuality and spark.

- There's a time and place for everything. When the club coincides with the streets, there's a problem.

- Like I said, we have the game... and neither myself nor my Brother are going anywhere in it. He played it, I'm still trying to work up the tolerance to, after watching him play it. I can't understand how you can consider the game to be empowering to women when the women in it act ridiculous... in fact, they act, to be blunt, stupid. The "ditzy blonde" stereotype is taken to an incredible extreme in this game. This game is about as empowering to women as Charles' Angels II.. I just don't see it.

*giggle, giggle, hi-five, dance* Let's go get us a sphere! *giggle!*
Yay Yunie *giggle*
*giggle some more*

- Heck, Sailor Moon does a better job at being female empowering than Final Fantasy X-2.

- You want to see empowering to Women? Watch Star Trek : Voyager. Female captain, takes no shit.

- Nothing personal to you, Mandrake, of course. This is all in good fun.
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entivore
Bjørn's Arctic Bitch of the Frozen North


Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 86
Location: michigan, usa
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:20 am    Post subject: [quote]
The whole concept of seeking empowerment from video games and other media is dumb. Anyone who needs to see "positive" images portrayed of people like them to develop their potential is really weak and vunerable, and even if they become "empowered", it will probably be a shallow empowerment that requires constant maintainence and shielding. Besides, it hardly seems to me women need any more empowerment anyway, as they are already, on average, better off than men in almost every measurable way in western society.

Now as for personal taste, it's still just personal taste regardless of the reasons behind it, and everyone is entitled to theirs. If your not satisfied with the products being offered, make your own(or in this case, make them faster :P). Why should it matter whether "sex" is used to sell recreational products like music and video games anyway? Ultimately they are just distractions, with the possible exception of educational games. What's really "sad" is that a lot of the time people feel the need to belittle those with certain taste.
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Happy
JonA's American snack pack


Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 200
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:17 am    Post subject: [quote]
Tenshi wrote:
- I was gonna let it drop...


Why didn't you? You've made your point about 20 times in this thread alone; You're mad at all the sluts with semi-large to large breasts who've turned you down because you have a small penis and your testes haven't dropped.

Congratulations Mom, your son's a transvestite!
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole


Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: [quote]
Quote:
Neo-feminist? Oh boy, that's probably the worst description I've ever heard applied to me. I might be a feminist but I don't go that far by any means. I'm a feminist in the sense that I think women shouldn't be made sexual objects just to sell a product, on the other hand I don't think men should either. But people can be sexy without being slutty or a sexual object.


And I don't think FFX-2 does that.

Quote:
There is a HUGE difference between sexy and being slutty, most video games I've seen don't seem to understand there is a line there. Sexy is someone who owns their sexuality that is in complete control of it because it makes her happy not some little slut who looks good and wears skimpy clothes just to make men happy.


and where at in FFX-2 is this portrayed? I don't see Yuna saying she was dressing like that to attract men. She was dressing like that because she was a pop star. Blame Japanese Pop fashion. Tenshi, btw, all that JPOP you love also promotes the same outfits, attitudes and etc as FFX-2. It's a essentially a JPOP video game.

Quote:
I feel sad that ffX-2 is so popular with girls since it tends to send the wrong message, even if it does get more girls into gaming. Granted I think Brittany Spears is far worse an influence on young girls than this game but it's still bothers me.


1. My wife is a gamer. 2. My brother's wife is a gamer. They are both adults over the age of 20, enjoy playing RPG's, and neither of them behave in a 'i'll dress slutty to get a man' kind of way. My best friends wife is also a gamer, an artist, and a hard core neo feminist. All three of them love FFX-2.

My arguement is that you may see it as targeting a young girl audiance to corrupt them and to make them into little whores, I see a game that is reaching an adult female audiance who finds the game entertaining and very feminine.

Quote:
Now back on topic. I plan on going pro if I can, to a certain extent I have since I work on cell phone games. But I'm an artist I have this urge for people to see my work because I tae so much pride in it. I can't understand why anyone would get mad because someone wants to go pro.

What's worse:
1- Going pro and having a job you love or
2- Getting some other job you don't love as much to pay your bills and continuing to make amature games

To me it doesn't seem to be a choice.


Being creative on demand destroys any fun or 'love' you once had for it.

Trust me on that.


Quote:
- That's real weird... considering that when I was reading an article about it in one of the Gaming Magazines my girlfriend had bought, the Developers specifically said they enhanced Yuna's image to give her more popularity. In fact, summing up what they said, "It works for Lara Croft, we figured it couldn't hurt to try it on Yuna". Hence where my point on Selling out comes from. Defend it all you want. THey claim the intentions of their own free will.


but they didn't say that they made her a slut to become more popular.


Quote:
- That's weird... considering that on the forum I hang out at for "Women Gamers" it didn't get that lovely of a reception. If it's a chick game, it's based more-so towards little girls... not too many I have seen like it. And I have actually seen the game. We have it.


All the adult, married woman I know love the game. Maybe your woman gamers are just crumedgeans.

Quote:
- Forgive me if I find the outfits lacking in sensibility. If they were so focused on empowerment, then why are the majority of the outfits heel-clad? Last I read (an article by a woman) the only way heels were empowering was for sexual attractiveness and attention-getting... where in contrast (according to her) heels are actually more of a submissive aspect for women to make themselves more appealing to men, because of the fact that it's not good for the spine...). In no way are heels suited for combat. At the very least, if the outfits are supposed to be empowering for women... what in the world is the point of the Swordsmen garment grid having heels?


Well you know how FANTASY games have to portray reality so well. I find it odd you complain about the realism of wearing heels, but not in casting spells and fighting monsters.

My wife wears heels. She does not do it to attract other men, or to please me. She does it because she likes to look good. She thinks they look good on her. Of course I got pissed usually because she forces me to wear stuff I hate because she thinkgs it makes me look good.....so I guess in our relationship you could say it's backwards?

Either way I find your heels arguement confusing. Why would the only reason someone dressed nice would be becasue they were enslaved to a male dominated society? That's like saying female goths who wear slave necklaces do so to attract men. It's fasion. Wether or not you agree with said fashion is only a matter of opinion.

Quote:
- Sure, perhaps its it's empowering for a woman to think: "Hey, I can be a completely sexy supermodel lacking in any apparent muscle-mass and run around in heels beating the shit out of men who are obviously more built than I am." In order for a woman to be a true villainess at least half of her breasts must be exposed to the general public, because you're not evil unless you're almost naked.


Well, Duh.

Quote:
- I'm sorry, but THIS is the direction of games.


We are not talking about all games, just FFX-2 in particular.

Quote:
Empowering. Gawd. I don't need a bra for those sacks of fat hanging off my chest, but I'm going to go perform some super-sumersaults and kick some male ass all the while looking like a perfectly f**kable pornstar.


sacks of fat? There called breasts. That's probably the most sexist thing I've ever heard.

Quote:
FOR Nour Polloni, the lead producer of a video game that will feature a tomboyish teenage girl named Kya, it was out of the question.

"They wanted to put her in a string bikini," she said of the all-male, multinational creative team that is helping her bring virtual life to the game, Kya: Dark Lineage, due in November from Atari. As one of the few women working in video game design and production, said Ms. Polloni, a Kuwaiti, she had to exert her authority.

...

While Ms. Polloni, 28, acknowledges that sex may sell, she contends that if video games are ever to appeal to both sexes, female characters need to offer far more than digital skin, pinup polygons and jiggle algorithms.
)

....blah blah blah


this has to do with FFX-2?

Quote:
- Like I said, we have the game... and neither myself nor my Brother are going anywhere in it. He played it, I'm still trying to work up the tolerance to, after watching him play it. I can't understand how you can consider the game to be empowering to women when the women in it act ridiculous... in fact, they act, to be blunt, stupid. The "ditzy blonde" stereotype is taken to an incredible extreme in this game. This game is about as empowering to women as Charles' Angels II.. I just don't see it.


Maybe because your not a woman. I don't question it, if they enjoy it, let 'em.

Quote:
*giggle, giggle, hi-five, dance* Let's go get us a sphere! *giggle!*
Yay Yunie *giggle*
*giggle some more*

- Heck, Sailor Moon does a better job at being female empowering than Final Fantasy X-2.

- You want to see empowering to Women? Watch Star Trek : Voyager. Female captain, takes no shit.


and is a bitch. Can't woman be powerfull and still effeminate? I guess not by yr standards.

Quote:
- Nothing personal to you, Mandrake, of course. This is all in good fun.


weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee fun!
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Xmark

http://pauljessup.com
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:16 am    Post subject: [quote]
Sorry to superghost and some others, for the posts related to professional game development that winded up here.

For the blocking and stuff, if another subject arises that has nothing to do with the thread, splitting it the action I prefer. Also, I prefer removal/editing and warning above bluntly locking a thread, as that doesn't really solve anything. This is mainly just some information for the one who previously blocked this thread.
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Tenshi
Everyone's Peachy Lil' Bitch


Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 386
Location: Newport News
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:25 am    Post subject: [quote]
BJorn, is there anyway you can append my thread to this one?

- If not, then this thread ties in with this one:
http://forums.rpgdx.net/viewtopic.php?t=866

- Just makes it a lil' easier instead of having to jump between threads. =T

Quote:
Why didn't you?

- Because the topic came up again. I have to have the last word. Don't like it? Tough, go away.

Quote:
You're mad at all the sluts with semi-large to large breasts who've turned you down because you have a small penis and your testes haven't dropped.

- Normally I'd love to flame you back, but it seems you're having some sort of crisis where you're putting your problems onto other people. I find the "small penis" bit incredibly hilarious, considering the social stereotype of what I am. In any case, if you're going to try and engage in a witful battle with me, you need to arm yourself first. You're a few bricks shy of a load, and if you want to start a restaurant chain, you'd better go back for more, quick.

Quote:
Congratulations Mom, your son's a transvestite!

- Yummy.
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter


Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:31 am    Post subject: [quote]
Tenshi wrote:
I have to have the last word. Don't like it? Tough, go away.

*cough*
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