| View previous topic - View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
I disagree that the problem with rogue-likes is randomness. I don't like random world generation in games at all, but the main problem with rogue-likes is shallowness: shallow worlds, shallow characters, shallow interaction with the game world. Basically the entire game revolves around killing monsters. All player choices are meaningless except in how they allow the player to kill more monsters. In other words, the problem with rogue-likes is actually the same as the problem with console rpgs: a linear plot with no player choice.
Let me state again that I don't like random world generation. I like games to have a persistent world that existed before the player came and will exist after the player leaves. I also don't like random player stats. This is not a criticism of your article, but merely a statement of my own personal preference.
The entire "concrete out from abstract" section was unnecessary. Any semi-competent software engineer will have no problem designing and implementing such a system.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Quote: |
I disagree that the problem with rogue-likes is randomness. I don't like random world generation in games at all, but the main problem with rogue-likes is shallowness: shallow worlds, shallow characters, shallow interaction with the game world
|
Which is partially created by the random nature of the games. A truly random world will be shallow. I think that was the point I was trying to make.
I agree with you that A priori worlds are the most interesting, world that seem to exist beyound the player's interaction with them. I go into this more on my second article, and talk about the combination of static and random worlds to create worlds that seem to have existance and substance.
I disagree with you on random stats though- even though player point distrobution is nice- random stats can add some interesting meaning to the game.
also- the real out of abstract was more me bullshitting some ideas on how to implement. Not really a tuturial, just brain storming.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
Nice start for an article series. Good food for thought. Keep it up.
| Quote: | | It's also hard to get attached to Radom Worlds. Most random worlds (especially in RL's) are just a series of interconnected rooms and tunnels. We need something more than that. We need sunshine glittering through trees. We need mushrooms crawling across the walls. We need a river that runs through a town. We need mist crawling across the hills. A living world, a world with emotional attachments connected to it, seems alive and beautiful. |
Well, that's just scenery, though, isn't it? You mention Chocobo's dungeon - that game had the things you mention, but it was still just rooms and tunnels, only with outdoor trappings.
But I know what you mean, though. The world needs LIFE, and not just life that is intended to be snuffed out. The world needs DETAIL, and not just detail that relates to the snuffing out of life.
| Quote: | | We can begin our static-random world creation here, by giving the player static choices based on the world (race, class, weapon, armor, gender), and randomly assign stats based on these statically defined natures. |
I like the idea of having the player's stats not just be statistic choices. But I disagree that the history should be random. Rather than letting the player just "choose a wizard template", and then tell him his history, why not start the character off as a tabula rasa, and then give the player choices and random historical events that influence his or her starting stats and skills? Ultima IV did this to a certain degree, but instead of having cryptic influences (does "Sacrifice" or "Humility" make a better Cleric?), have them be sensical.
For instance, randomize the player's initial station in life. Say he's born the son of a rural hedge wizard. This starts him off fairly poor, but with some small magical aptitude and knowledge of mysticism. When he reaches adolescence, give him the option to follow the dream his father had for him to go to the Magic Academy, or to go join the local militia (among other choices). If he joins the Academy, bump his intelligence and magery skills, cut his starting cash in half (the Academy is expensive), and change his home town. If he joins the local militia, bump up his fighting skills and physical prowess, and start him off with some fighting equipment. And so on. From the choices he makes, other choices open up, and perhaps some random events are thrown in to modify things, or even to provide the possibility of other choices. When the history is complete, you'll have a character whose stats reflect the life experiences that he chose, or which happened to him.
With this system, if the player wants to be a wizard, he can make choices that move him towards becoming a mage, but he probably picks up other skills and talents along the way that relate closely to his background, adding interest and depth to the player's avatar.
I also like this approach because it is not class-based, but skill-based. If the player waffles between magery and military, then he should have skills in both, but not as strong as someone who had devoted their life to one or the other.
For game balance, you could assign weights to historical choices, and only present options that keep the total weight within a certain threshold.
Anyway, just some ideas that were sparked by your article. Keep writing.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Mandrake wrote: |
Which is partially created by the random nature of the games. A truly random world will be shallow. I think that was the point I was trying to make. |
A world generated by a shallow algorithm will be shallow. A world generated by a deep algorithm will be deep.
| Quote: | | I disagree with you on random stats though- even though player point distrobution is nice- random stats can add some interesting meaning to the game. |
Personally I'll take fixed stats over random stats if I can't have the stats of my choice. In games with random stats I tend to reroll the stats until I get the combination I want. Just my personal preference.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Quote: |
A world generated by a shallow algorithm will be shallow. A world generated by a deep algorithm will be deep.
|
Not really. An algorythm can never reproduce a level as lively as one designed by an excellent level designer. It's like playing Mad Libs and trying to write shakespear with the results.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Quote: |
I like the idea of having the player's stats not just be statistic choices. But I disagree that the history should be random. Rather than letting the player just "choose a wizard template", and then tell him his history, why not start the character off as a tabula rasa, and then give the player choices and random historical events that influence his or her starting stats and skills? Ultima IV did this to a certain degree, but instead of having cryptic influences (does "Sacrifice" or "Humility" make a better Cleric?), have them be sensical.
For instance, randomize the player's initial station in life. Say he's born the son of a rural hedge wizard. This starts him off fairly poor, but with some small magical aptitude and knowledge of mysticism. When he reaches adolescence, give him the option to follow the dream his father had for him to go to the Magic Academy, or to go join the local militia (among other choices). If he joins the Academy, bump his intelligence and magery skills, cut his starting cash in half (the Academy is expensive), and change his home town. If he joins the local militia, bump up his fighting skills and physical prowess, and start him off with some fighting equipment. And so on. From the choices he makes, other choices open up, and perhaps some random events are thrown in to modify things, or even to provide the possibility of other choices. When the history is complete, you'll have a character whose stats reflect the life experiences that he chose, or which happened to him.
With this system, if the player wants to be a wizard, he can make choices that move him towards becoming a mage, but he probably picks up other skills and talents along the way that relate closely to his background, adding interest and depth to the player's avatar.
I also like this approach because it is not class-based, but skill-based. If the player waffles between magery and military, then he should have skills in both, but not as strong as someone who had devoted their life to one or the other.
For game balance, you could assign weights to historical choices, and only present options that keep the total weight within a certain threshold.
Anyway, just some ideas that were sparked by your article. Keep writing.
|
Heh, well it seems we are looking at this differently. What Cyberpunk did (and what I was suggesting) was showing randomized external influences as you grew up and events that triggered them. Like getting rich, falling in love, things that aren't player choices but random acts of fate.
But I do love your idea as well becuase it even enhances farther the player-character emotional bond- maybe this-
first you randomly start the begining (ie: player is chosen to be son of a wizard, etc, most RL's do this)
Then you have a player choice tree come up (this can be visualized in the game in many different ways) that evoke occupational triggers (like things that are more towards magic learning or fighting) and let the player choose which path (defining and modifying skills and stats along the way).
This should be done by year, and have three types of events generated: 1- nothing happens. 2.- choice event. Player chooses path that moves more towards occupational pathways 3- An external event happens that can be beneficial or negative that affects stats outside of player control.
This can combine together in an interesting way to determine player's stats by not rolling any stats for them, but it still adds in a bit of randomness (the random events) and creates a better bond between player and character. This forces the player to act in character at the start of the game. I think I might an addendum to the article including this.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Mandrake wrote: | | Not really. An algorythm can never reproduce a level as lively as one designed by an excellent level designer. It's like playing Mad Libs and trying to write shakespear with the results. |
Trivially false: given a level designed by an excellent level designer, I can easily write an algorithm that outputs exactly that level (and only that level).
What you have to understand is that there is nothing novel about using prefabricated elements in a random world generator. Even the original rogue (or Moria, with which I am more familiar) did it to some extend. There were two elements - the room and the corridor - both of which were parametrized by random factors and repeated ad inifinitum. Randomness cannot create structure; it can only parametrize existing structure. The structure is inherent in the algorithm. A deep world generation algorithm consists of a large set of complex prefabricated structural elements combined and parametrized in complex ways to produce a complex result.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
You don't even know exactly what I mean by this. Rogue didn't, but Moria did for a little bit. When I get to the world building part, and you see exactly what I mean, then we can butt heads on this.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
janus
Mage
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 464
Location: Issaquah, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | Mandrake wrote: | | Not really. An algorythm can never reproduce a level as lively as one designed by an excellent level designer. It's like playing Mad Libs and trying to write shakespear with the results. |
Trivially false: given a level designed by an excellent level designer, I can easily write an algorithm that outputs exactly that level (and only that level).
What you have to understand is that there is nothing novel about using prefabricated elements in a random world generator. Even the original rogue (or Moria, with which I am more familiar) did it to some extend. There were two elements - the room and the corridor - both of which were parametrized by random factors and repeated ad inifinitum. Randomness cannot create structure; it can only parametrize existing structure. The structure is inherent in the algorithm. A deep world generation algorithm consists of a large set of complex prefabricated structural elements combined and parametrized in complex ways to produce a complex result. |
No matter how complex your algorithm is, it's still going to feel unoriginal and boring compared to something crafted by a skilled, creative person.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| janus wrote: | | No matter how complex your algorithm is, it's still going to feel unoriginal and boring compared to something crafted by a skilled, creative person. |
Obviously (or perhaps not so obviously) you can't get more out of an algorithm than what you put in. However, there is no specific result that cannot be achieved algorithmically.
Here's one approach to writing a decent (but not great) random map generator. Start out with a good hand crafted map. Then examine the map for ways in which it could be altered without breaking the overall design. For example, it is probably safe to flip the level horizontally. It might be safe to vary the length of a certain hallway within certain limits. Randomize those aspects of the map. Whereever the map already contains appearent randomness, factor out that randomness. Continue this process until your map generator produces enough variation. This will likely take about 10 to 1000 times as long as creating the original map, depending on how thoroughly and carefully you work.
Now start this process over with a different hand crafted map and create a new random map generator. Integrate the random map generators until you have a single random map generator that can generate both types of maps. Depending on how similar the maps are, it may or may not be useful for the random map generator to be able to produce maps that combine elements from the two different original random map generators.
Repeat this process of starting with a hand crafted map, writing a random map generator, and integrating it a acouple of hundred times. In the end you should end up with a map generator that produces results that are almost as good as the source maps, for only a hundred times more effort.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:19 am Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
Which is not what I was talking about at all. But hey, why actually talk about the main peices of my article? Why not just bring up points I haven't delved into yet? It's much easier to point out flaws in something you haven't read or seen yet.
Either way, even with your algorythm it still wouldn't be able to produce a good, original map on it's own when comapred to one done by one good level designer.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:26 am Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Mandrake wrote: | | Which is not what I was talking about at all. But hey, why actually talk about the main peices of my article? Why not just bring up points I haven't delved into yet? It's much easier to point out flaws in something you haven't read or seen yet. |
I was directly addressing Janus's post, and only indirectly your statement that the problem with rogue-likes is randomness. If you want to take that as a criticism of your article, fine. After all, I do disagree with your statement.
Designing a level is a work of art. Writing a good level generator is also a work of art, and one that's more difficult by several orders of magnitude. The typical rogue-like has an unbelievably crappy random level generator because people have been taught to expect crappy output from random level generators. The problem isn't randomness, it's people using randomness as an excuse.
| Quote: | | Either way, even with your algorythm it still wouldn't be able to produce a good, original map on it's own when comapred to one done by one good level designer. |
Yes, that's why I said it was a way to write a decent (not great) world generator.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:35 am Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Quote: | | Designing a level is a work of art. Writing a good level generator is also a work of art, and one that's more difficult by several orders of magnitude. The typical rogue-like has an unbelievably crappy random level generator because people have been taught to expect crappy output from random level generators. The problem isn't randomness, it's people using randomness as an excuse. |
Actually, I disagree with this. Quite abit. I don't think a completely random game with completely random maps and enemies and worlds will ever have the *emotional* connotation (and connection) as one derived from non-random means.
_________________
"Well, last time I flicked on a lighter, I'm pretty sure I didn't create a black hole."-
Xmark
http://pauljessup.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:39 am Post subject: |
[quote] |
|
| Mandrake wrote: | | Quote: | | Designing a level is a work of art. Writing a good level generator is also a work of art, and one that's more difficult by several orders of magnitude. The typical rogue-like has an unbelievably crappy random level generator because people have been taught to expect crappy output from random level generators. The problem isn't randomness, it's people using randomness as an excuse. |
Actually, I disagree with this. Quite abit. I don't think a completely random game with completely random maps and enemies and worlds will ever have the *emotional* connotation (and connection) as one derived from non-random means. |
And some developer somewhere designing some map isn't doing so randomly? While a person could have a set plan for developing something, I think a lot of design is arbitrary randomness. I think what you are debating is not randomness, per se, but human- verses computer- generated content.
_________________
"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
  |
Page 1 of 3 |
All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
