RPGDX > Forums > Off Topic > Question for (commercial) indie developers

tcaudilllg

Why do you believe you can compete? Why do you believe you stand a a chance of selling your products in competition with teams who have dozens, even hundreds, of specialists? And even if you can sell them, how do you hope to sell enough to make a living?

Mattias Gustavsson · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject:

One way is casual games. Develop a simple game quickly (2-3 months) and sell cheaply (<$10) on all the games portals (which have lots and lots of customers who want simple, cheap games, which the big teams can't deliver). Not so difficult to do, but there's no long-term business in it - the market is saturated and competition fierce.

Another way is to go niche-market. Find an under-served market: a type of game which there is a demand for, but not a high enough demand for the big boys to be interested. Make your game good enough to meet the requirements of that niche-market, while keeping costs low enough to make profit possible and sell for $20-$30. More difficult to do, and there's more risk (what if the potential market isn't as big as you thought?), but also more potential for long-term business.

There's a lot of successful indie developers who have gone both routes. What seems to be common to the successful ones, is that their games are distinctly different from AAA games, both in scope, gameplay and technology. Try to compete with the main games industry on either, and you're sure to fail. You'll be filling the voids left by the big developers - you won't be competing with them.

The key is picking up the crumbs that are left over, and which the AAA guys can't be bothered to pick up :-)
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tcaudilllg · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject:

Mattias Gustavsson · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject:

Ah, that's the tricky bit - and I guess it's even more tricky to determine how big they are. It's part guesswork, but it's also about looking around for existing products, to make your guess more educated.

But you also need to consider your costs. As an example, you might identify oldschool point-and-click adventure games as an underserved market - there used to be lots of them, but now the AAA industry isn't making them anymore. It is likely that there are still quite a few fans out there. But could you produce a good enough adventure on a budget that leaves room for profit? Most of us probably couldn't, but there are certainly some who can

You also have the problem of how to reach your potential market - what sales or advertising channels are available?

When going the casual portal route, that bit gets easier - you already have a big market available - but you are restricted in the type of game, and the portal takes a big cut.
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tcaudilllg · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject:

How many of you believe you can be successful in this industry?

Mattias Gustavsson · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject:

Why do you want to know?
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DeveloperX

tcaudilllg

Mattias Gustavsson · Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:26 am Post subject:

I don't get all this "self-image" stuff (you're a funny guy!) but I do think that a skilled developer have a good chance of success if he is passionate about what he does (tends to shine through in the final product), avoids competing with AAA/retail games, finds an underserved niche-market and has enough focus and perseverence to see the whole thing through. Time will tell if I'm one of them :P

("charismatic individual"? "figurehead"? "build up your image?" - You ARE a funny guy :D )
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tcaudilllg · Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject:

RedSlash · Mage Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 331

I wouldn't even think about competing with the aaa developers. I have the passion and all but it's just silly to think I am better than them. Sure you may say, all I have to do is make a great game. That alone is a hard feat itself, and with thousands of people who think they can can do better have enjoyed no success. So the question is, am I really good, or do I just think I am. After all these years, I realized the truth. That is to stop dreaming about big plans and big money. So rather than competing with AAA developers, I just don't compete at all. I make games for personal enjoyment and to provide entertainment to those interested. This would be provided free of charge. The amount of success I will have with such a free project would be indicated by the popularity and interest in my games. Should it become so popular, then making money would be in the palm of my hand without even selling a single copy of the game. I am working hard at getting there, but most importantly, I'm making games for fun.

RampantCoyote · Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:19 am Post subject:

LordGalbalan:

First of all, let me apologize by answering this question with a bunch of links, but I've actually spent a bunch of time on this subject.

I have been a commercial, mainstream, even "AAA" developer. I've written best-selling console games (and a few flops). And I've been a commercial indie - not full-time (yet). I've tried to be plugged in with the commercial indie RPG side of things as much as I can, but my only commercially released indie game wasn't an RPG (and didn't do all that great, but it was a great learning experience).

So I can't claim massive amounts of authority. But I did ask the experts a year ago and compiled their answers in an article at Tales of the Rampant Coyote:

Indies of the Round Table: Why Indie RPGs?

My own musings:

Why Indie CRPGs

I think there's plenty of room for both mainstream and indie RPGs. Frankly, I think some of the most innovative stuff is happening in the indie space. Not that most indie games are pinnacles of innovation - but neither are mainstream games.

I don't think going "casual" is the key (though it has worked very well for Hanako Games and Amaranthia). But that's one niche - one opportunity. Vogel's got another niche, which the Basilisk Games guys are also addressing. The Iron Tower folks are going after a real hardcore audience.

There are a bunch of advantages that indies can have over the big ol' dinosaurs, too. We can afford to go niche. We can take advantage of a much larger lifecycle than mainstream games. We don't have to worry about shelf space and distribution. We can take advantage of IP rights (dealing with publishers usually means surrendering these rights). We can address niche platforms, like Mac or Unix.

We can work together.

For me, specifically - I'm pretty much shooting for the unique and different. I've got a comedy / humor / parody RPG in development, and I've got a modern horror and modern... uh... just modern... RPG on the backburner.

I also have a day job, so I won't need these games to support me quite yet.
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tcaudilllg · Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject:

The more people working on a project, the greater your chances for success. (assuming the idea is good) A team of 25 people isn't indie... it's a part of the industry. Even ten people as such could probably suffice, were there enough talent amongst the members.

At this site it seems like everybody does it either on their own or in teams of no more than five. Thinking about it, there was only one thing that seperated DarkDread's games from everybody else's here, and that was coherency. On the one hand, his games offer a pleasant interface; on the other, the characters behave realistically. And he had charisma, but I think that just helped him wrap the other characters around the protagonist personality-wise. I cannot stress enough however how important that element is, because for a person to be a heroic figure it is required that many people abdicate responsibility to them, thus making success or failure dependent on one person's choices. This is a characteristic of all jRPG protagonists, in that they are the "center of the universe" which everything else is dependent on someway or another. In my judgment, wrapping all elements around one figure is an essential element of game design.

Mattias Gustavsson · Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject:

tcaudilllg · Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject:

Homogeneity is important: so long as everyone on the team is of like mind, their purpose will be cohesive. Group think is useful when trying to complete an ambitious project, because a group-thinking collective obeys the leader, and any persons whom have potential to contest the leader's authority find they have no reason to in practice.

In general, it's best to work with friends: people you know and trust. This isn't necessary for contract work, but it is for teams. A big part of the problem, though, is that everyone is wanting to make their own game with their own set of characters. This means that to be fair, the leader must narrowly define their own focus so as not to "butt out" the characterizations by other members. Game play ideas are different: they reflect a subset of interests and can be highly idiosyncratic. For this reason they should be decided by consensus: gameplay that the developers cannot agree on as fun will face tough criticism.