[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

Hello,
   I am a newcomer to this community; so first, let me say that I've been very impressed by what I've seen so far, and I'd like to thank all its participants, the administrators in particular, for providing such an excellent site. I very much hope that you can keep it afloat. (There is an old story that, when a Mandrake-root is pulled from the ground, it lets out a shriek which kills everything which hears it; all the more reason to keep this Mandrake fellow firmly-rooted then, yes?)
   I suppose it's unfortunate that my first question should be potentially so inflammatory. But, it is a topic which I find of great interest and pertinence, to me (particularly given what I'm working on now), and RPGs in general. If anyone does feel offended, in any way, by this post, please notify me, and I'll try to retract the offensive part.
  My question is this: what do you think of morality and obscenity in RPGs? This can be bifurcated:

1)   What do you think of obscenity in RPGs? (For example, the game I am working on now contains necrophilia. It is not, I think, gratuitous, nor graphic, but it is explicit.)

2)   Whereas the question above could be applied to any medium, this one is specific to RPGs: Given that the player takes on the role of the main character, should the main character be required to be "good", generally speaking? This is particularly applicable to non-linear RPGs. I am not speaking, either, of banal super-villainy evil; I mean, should he be allowed to do things which are morally reprehensible? (For example, few people, today, would ban "Lolita"; but we might feel differently if we were asked to take on the role and the moral responsibilities of that novel's protagonist.)

   Well, that's it. I'm very sorry that this post has turned out to be so long; but I would be very, very interested to hear any opinions whatsoever on this matter. I have far from made up my own mind on this issue, and your opinions (should they be well-reasoned), could help tip the balance in either direction.
   Thank you for your kind attention.

[Rainer Deyke]

1. RPGs are art, and it is not the place of society to tell artists what they can or can't put into their art. If you feel compelled to write a necro-porn game, by all means do so!

As for my personal preference, it all depends on how it's handled. I'm certainly not going to be offended by necrophilia, but at the same time, I'm probably not going to play a necro-porn game. If necrophilia is only one minor aspect in a game about something else entirely, it's probably not going to affect my opinion of the game one way or the other.

2. I have my own set of values which do not necessarily match your values and certainly don't match those of society. I like games that let me act in accordance to my own values. I dislike it when games force me to act in opposition to my values, especially if I'm supposed to be the "good guy".

[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

   Thanks for the reply; just to clarify, before it gets out of hand, the game's not in any manner "necro-porn". The necrophiliac is included for dramatic purposes only, not to indulge anyone's unusual appetites, and there will definitely not be any explicit graphics or anything, and certainly nothing anyone could get off on. This isn't a comment on the topic at hand, I'm just making sure that when I've finally finished the game, people don't stay away from it in droves because of a misapprehension.

[Bjorn]

A warm welcome to you.

1. I'm not sure what "obscenity" means exactly. When referring to nudity, some obscenity can make a game more fun, like in Diablo. When referring to crude use of language, same thing. We used some 'dirty jokes' in Sauerkraut, but it helped creating the player's character.
   
   
2. In my opinion, the player character can be anyone, as long as the player can 'connect' with his character. The goal of the player character can be to take over the world, but only when the player is introduced to him in such a way that he would like to take over the world with this character.
   
   Some movies tell the story of criminals in such a way that the audience will stand on the side of the criminals. This is often done by expressing the cunning burglar skills of the criminals, and mostly by not allowing any 'sorry feelings' for the victim too.
   

[Barok]

Hello! welcome to indierpg!

1. whether you want to put any of that stuff in your rpg if up to you. you are by no means restricted in your game. no one is making you do it. do what you feel is best with the game. for all we care, make all the characters nude. but be warned, adding some of that stuff will greatly reduce the playing crowd. i'm making my rpg so it'll appeal to the largest audience possible.

2. You can make your character whatever you wish, as long as he plays the part. (if you have an evil character, don't give him sidequests like help little timmy get over his cold, or go berry picking.) Make a character sketch. this'll help lots. if you have a main character that is bad then goes good, give reason. (we don't wanna see a bad guy be bad for 40 hours, then go good for the last five minutes because he doesn't wanna be on the losing side.) It would be interesting to see a team with evil guys and good guys working together to beat a bigger threat. show some dialog, conflicts between characters, and above all else, use your imagination!
_________________
Adosorken: I always liked slutty 10th graders...
Rhiannon: *Slap!*

[Barok]

one last thing. i looked at your webpage, and i think your rpg's going to be excellent. if the rpg is as good as you say it is, then it could be in the league of secret of cooey, or maybe even mysterious song!!

Don't be affraid to be original. maybe design a new battle engine. (i'm not really designing a new one, merely taking the atb system, and adding new types of attacks, like combo: a very complex system that'll take time to code. example: you choose an attack, then combo command. choose a partner. when you choose for the partner to use a certain attack. (maybe a mages fire attack combo'd with your warriors attack? this would produce a fire sword. sort of like ff IX's sword magic.) I'm also thinking of implementing an energy meter. this is my type of mp points. attacking brings down the meter. when you use more powerful attacks, your energy meter goes down, and the lower it goes, the less you do. doing nothing repleneshes this meter. Expect this in my rpg. i'm just saying these things to maybe inspire you. i look forward to your game, Jihgfed Pumpkinhead!
_________________
Adosorken: I always liked slutty 10th graders...
Rhiannon: *Slap!*

[Adam]

hell, the further you get away from "save x world from y dragon" the better

i assume im the only person here who sees the comic potential in necrophelia
_________________
https://numbatlogic.com

[Nephilim]

Well, let me give an alternative viewpoint to the "go for it!" messages earlier in this thread.

Are you free to make a game containing references to necrophilia? Yes. Are there laws against it? Not explicitly (although obscenity is defined by the community in which you live, so depending on where you live, you could be at risk). Does that mean that there will be no negative repercussions for doing it? No.

I don't want to tell you how to make your game, but I would like to ask you to think twice before including things like necrophilia in games you intend to publish. This is *exactly* the sort of thing that gives politicians the clout they need to push through things like the "Protect Children from Sex and Violence in Video Games" act which will hamper us all.

If you're going to be responsible to the rest of the game development industry, you should be *absolutely certain* that it could not be construed as being put in for simple shock factor, or for titillation, or whatever. If it's just in there, say, to establish that the villain is a really bad guy, that's probably not enough. It should have real, intrinsic value to the story and the message, and it must be handled in such a way that it is clearly being taken as a serious, compelling subject that needs thoughtful, mature scrutiny. Particularly, it should be presented in such a way that it is obvious even to the "videogames are brainwashing our children!!" idiots that no kid would be adversely affected by it.

And I'm not just talking about apologetics in your own brain - it has to be obvious to people who don't think about this stuff, and to people who do not generally think of video games as "art".

Ideally, it wouldn't have to pass such a test, but the reality is that if the wrong kid with the wrong parent plays your game, you've just made it that much easier for politicians to prevent you from doing what you want to do in the next game you make (or I make).

Basically, your reference to Lolita is the key. Lolita can get away with having a (sym)pathetic character being a child molester because it manages to extract an obvious deeper discussion on the topic. (Even then, there was a fair amount of public outrage.) You will need to ensure that your coverage of the topic of necrophilia has as obvious an intrinsic value as the topic of child molestation does in Lolita, probably even moreso, since Lolita had the advantage of being in a medium that is commonly accepted as "literature", a distinction the video game lamentably still does not have (and never will if we don't make games responsibly).

In the end, what you do is up to you. If you can pull it off, more power to you - we need games that clearly demonstrate that video games can be art, and can address life's issues in meaningful, nontrivial, and nondestructive ways to counter the claims made by those who would silence us. But if you care about issues like this (which you obviously do, since you started this thread), I would hope that you weigh carefully the benefit that your game would get out of bringing in such a hot-button topic against the ammunition you would give to the people who would like to make laws to prevent us from having the freedom to make the games we choose in the future.

(If you are outside the United States, this issue changes somewhat, since you are not directly culpable under US law, but if your games filter in to America, it could make it difficult for those of us who *do* develop games here.)

[EDIT] I just checked out the web page for your game. I'm encouraged! The very fact that the player's actions have nontrivial repercussions in the game - and that you've thought a lot about how to model complex social issues in a game at all - tells me that your goal is to present at least a deeper story than most home-brew (or even commercial) RPG's. Sounds interesting. Keep us informed on your progress.

[Rainer Deyke]

[Barok]

[Guest]

[grenideer]

1. Put whatever in your game you want, for whatever reason you want. I could tell by reading your post alone that you intend to deal with it in a mature way. It might turn me off, it might not. It really depends if I like the game or not. But it's cool to take the genre to new places.

2. I totally think rpgs have too many good guy types. Even games I love, like Skies of Arcadia, perpetuate this idea (we're pirates, but we're good pirates). I was actually surprised that the main character in Grandia II was anti-religious - the game even got a bit preachy on that fact. But game stories are getting closer and closer to movie stories, and that means having the main character be a bad guy.

This isn't a new thing in a lot of games, typically action games. Vice City is just the newest of the bunch. I jumped on the opportunity to play an evil vampire in Dark Wizard for the Sega Cd. But console rpgs, especially linear ones, never seemed to have crossed over this way. I suspect it's because these games have constant dialog and activities based on the character's morals and values, and scripting this for a bad guy is harder.

I'll check out your web page but if you're interested in the morality of rpg characters, specifically the main character, then you gotta check out my rpg. It'll be complete in a couple of months so all you get is the website for now.

Nephilim: I definitely get what you are saying, but the fact is that moms and politicians will jump all over this industry no matter what. The time for video games to be thought of as art by the mainstream will come whether or not BMX XXX part 10 comes out or not. Afterall, I don't think Memento wasn't art just because I saw Debbie Does Dallas the other day. Obscenity aside, there are plenty of idiotic movies that aren't considered art anyway. These appeal to a certain audience without detracting from the medium. Anyway, my point is, don't be so worried. Our industry isn't as threatened as these activist groups want us to think. We'll be fine.
_________________
Diver Down

[grenideer]

very cool game idea. You've put a lot of thought into the different systems and characters. It seems inspired from that Clive Barker game. I'd love to see what all this looks like when you get a significant enough amount of work done.
_________________
Diver Down

[Barok]

yes... your right nephilim. But that's what Ratings are for. If everyone with sites with links to games had ratings (like vplanet) then people would know what to expect. or games that are bad should be in a special link, and are brought to a warning link. sadly, not one of the sites do that (Except vplanet). I'm not saying that'd solve all our problems. just that if games and sites implemented this, kids couldn't blame the site (or the developers) if they if they got caught playing dirty games, as they would warn people what kind of game it is.
_________________
Adosorken: I always liked slutty 10th graders...
Rhiannon: *Slap!*

[Nephilim]