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NyanNyanKoneko
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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 Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not going to deny that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is rising, it is. It's 360 parts per million as opposed to 290 parts per million as found 100 years ago. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be making a difference.
Greenhouse warming due to these gasses has been scientifically proven not to exist. In fact, in the last 3,000 years, there were 5 periods where it was warmer than Earth's current temperature.
| Quote: | 1 MYTH Planet earth is currently undergoing global warming
FACT Accurate and representative temperature measurements from satellites and balloons show that the planet has cooled significantly in the last two or three years, losing in only 18 months 15% of the claimed warming which took over 100 years to appear — that warming was only one degree fahrenheit (half of one degree Celsius) anyway, and part of this is a systematic error from groundstation readings which are inflated due to the 'urban heat island effect' i.e. local heat retention due to urban sprawl, not global warming...and it is these, 'false high' ground readings which are then programmed into the disreputable climate models, which live up to the GIGO acronym — garbage in, garbage out.
2 MYTH Even slight temperature rises are disastrous, ice caps will melt, people will die
FACT In the UK, every mild winter saves 20,000 cold-related deaths, and scaled up over northern Europe mild winters save hundreds of thousands of lives each year, also parts of ice caps are melting yet other parts are thickening but this isn't reported as much (home experiment: put some water in a jug or bowl, add a layer of ice cubes and mark the level — wait until the ice has melted and look again, the level will have fallen). Data from ice core samples shows that in the past, temperatures have risen by ten times the current rise, and fallen again, in the space of a human lifetime.
3 MYTH Carbon Dioxide levels in our atmosphere at the moment are unprecedented (high).
FACT Atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, currently only 350 parts per million have been over 18 times higher in the past at a time when cars, factories and power stations did not exist — levels rise and fall without mankind's help.
4 MYTH Mankind is pumping out carbon dioxide at a prodigious rate.
FACT 96.5% of all carbon dioxide emissions are from natural sources, mankind is responsible for only 3.5%, with 0.6% coming from fuel to move vehicles, and about 1% from fuel to heat buildings. Yet vehicle fuel (petrol) is taxed at 300% while fuel to heat buildings is taxed at 5% even though buildings emit nearly twice as much carbon dioxide!
5 MYTH Carbon dioxide changes in the atmosphere cause temperature changes on the earth.
FACT A report in the journal 'Science' in January of this year showed using information from ice cores with high time resolution that since the last ice age, every time when the temperature and carbon dioxide levels have shifted, the carbon dioxide change happened AFTER the temperature change, so that man-made global warming theory has put effect before cause — this shows that reducing carbon dioxide emissions is a futile King Canute exercise! What's more, both water vapour and methane are far more powerful greenhouse gases than carbon dioxide but they are ignored.
6 MYTH Reducing car use will cut carbon dioxide levels and save the planet
FACT The planet does not need saving, but taking this on anyway, removing every car from every road in every country overnight would NOT produce any change in the carbon dioxide level of the atmosphere, as can be seen using the numbers from Fact 4, and in any case it is pointless trying to alter climate by changing carbon dioxide levels as the cause and effect is the other way round — it is changes in the activity of the Sun that cause temperature changes on earth, with any temperature rise causing carbon dioxide to de-gas from the oceans.
7 MYTH The recent wet weather and flooding was caused by mankind through 'global warming'
FACT Extreme weather correlates with the cycle of solar activity, not carbon dioxide emissions or political elections, the recent heavy rainfall in winter and spring is a perfect example of this — it occurred at solar maximum at a time when solar maxima are very intense — this pattern may well repeat every 11 years until about 2045.
8 MYTH The climate change levy, petrol duty, CO2 car tax and workplace parking charges are justifiable environmental taxes.
FACT As carbon dioxide emissions from cars and factories does not have any measurable impact on climate, these taxes are 'just another tax' on enterprise and mobility, and have no real green credentials.
9 MYTH Scientists on the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) issue reports that say 'global warming' is real and that we must do something now.
FACT Scientists draft reports for the IPCC, but the IPCC are bureaucrats appointed by governments, in fact many scientists who contribute to the reports disagree with the 'spin' that the IPCC and media put on their findings.
The latest report suggests that the next 100 years might see a temperature change of 6 Celsius yet a Lead Author for the IPCC (Dr John Christy UAH/NASA) has pointed out that the scenarios with the fastest warming rates were added to the report at a late stage, at the request of a few governments — in other words the scientists were told what to do by politicians.
10 MYTH There are only a tiny handful of maverick scientists who dispute that man-made global warming theory is true.
FACT There are nearly 18,000 signatures from scientists worldwide on a petition called The Oregon Petition which says that there is no evidence for man-made global warming theory nor for any impact from mankind's activities on climate.
Many scientists believe that the Kyoto agreement is a total waste of time and one of the biggest political scams ever perpetrated on the public ... as H L Mencken said "the fundamental aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary" ... the desire to save the world usually fronts a desire to rule it. |
http://www.abd.org.uk/green_myths.htm
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, NNK is right, everyone...there's no such thing as global warming. We've all been fooled! It's a HUGE conspiracy theory brought on by evil left-wing environmentalists! This article proves everything!!
For a brief moment, I questioned "the truth" as I knew it. But then I took a closer look at not only this webpage, but also who represents it and other important details. Unfortunately for NNK, there are quite a few fatal flaws here..
1. This page contains zero references. There are no sources cited whatsoever.
2. This page is owned by the ABD...a special interest group that represents automobiles. "We are not for profit!" doesn't mean "we don't make any". And besides, of COURSE they're going to fight the environmentalists...it's the environmentalists who have made the claim that cars contribute to pollution...damn those environmentalists, damn them all to hell...!
3. Their links simply go to other sites which represent their same ideals, which are skewed and do not represent any real scientific evidence. This group reminds me of the morons who started up the modern ID crap.
4. They say over 18000 scientists have signed this mystery petition. Where is it?
5. On a side-note...their website looks like it was made by some high school kid as a final course project in an introductory HTML class. :P
I find it hilarious, NNK, that you dismiss one "conspiracy theory" yet are completely suckered into another.
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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NyanNyanKoneko
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I find it hilarious, NNK, that you dismiss one "conspiracy theory" yet are completely suckered into another. |
I don't see how you can say that. I know a lot of right wingers out there will not even acknowledge the hard work of scientists and the possible repercussions of global warming. I'm pretty left of many people on the right on the global warming debate. My stance is, "there isn't enough evidence to do anything yet." The people who say Global Warming is a complete myth, or those that say it's a serious man-made threat are the ones living in a fantasy world, ignoring real-world data and facts.
A lot of those on the left will use Global Warming as a scare tactic to force more stringent government intervention in areas of our public and private life. The fact of the matter is that global warming is still in a pretty inconclusive state at the moment, and shouldn't be used to scare people out of driving their cars, etc...
Now I'm not against cleaning the environment. I think cleaning the air is important, but shouldn't be government mandated. I would like to see our power plants going nuclear or hydro-electric, and our cars using less to no oil. But really, we shouldn't be forced to do these things because of the "global warming threat" which may or may not exist.
EDIT:
Here's a nice dialog from google answers:
| Quote: | Scientists agree that global temperature is increasing due to two causes
1) astronomical causes (cycles outside of our atmosphere, e.g. sun output)
2) terrestrial changes due to both human activity and natural changes, such as
changes in the atmosphere e.g. greenhouse gases, clouds,
changes in albedo = surface reflectivity, such as snow cover, deforestation ...
Temperature has been increasing since the middle-ages, mostly due to cause #1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
Human activity contributes a very small proportion to cause #2.
So
1) "Do scientist believe it?"
I estimate 95% of all scientists would agree with the following
statement but would not call it 'a belief':
Global warming is real and a very small fraction of it is caused by humans.
2) " [do they] expect it to have a severe negative impact to mankind? "
People in the natural sciences do not speculate about that.
That is a topic in political science, futurology or anthropology
because it depends partly on what people will do in the future. |
| Quote: | "There is, therefore, no scientific consensus on global warming. ..
But perhaps even more important than whether or not scientists have
reached a consensus, however, is whether or not the scientific data
backs up the theory. Data collected from NASA's TIROs series of
weather satellites show a slight cooling trend of .04 degrees Celsius
over the past 18 years .." |
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=610764
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | The people who say Global Warming is a complete myth, or those that say it's a serious man-made threat are the ones living in a fantasy world, ignoring real-world data and facts. |
Heh. Funny that someone who thought LG was wise and smart, and who thinks it's plausible that INTJ's will unify and overthrow the other personality types in the world, is claiming to know when people live in a fantasy world or not.
And just because you keep blathering on with neocon talking points, you damn troll, here's what Wikipedia has to say about global warming (since you appear to believe that web sites like Google answers are credible climatology resources):
| Wikipedia wrote: | | Temperature change is just one aspect of the broader subject of climate change. The scientific opinion on climate change, as expressed by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and explicitly endorsed by the national science academies of the G8 nations, is that the average global temperature has risen 0.6 ± 0.2 °C since the late 19th century, and that it is likely that "most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities". A small minority of qualified scientists contest the view that humanity's actions have played a significant role in increasing recent temperatures. |
Bonus question. Which are more likely to be corporate shills: a "small minority" of scientists, or the vast majority?
If you look at the graph on the Wikipedia page (I'm not going to be a bandwidth thief like NNK is above, so you'll have to follow the link yourself), you'll instantly see why any recent cooling has exactly zero to do with global warming. As NNK even pointed out, climate temperature is cyclic. That's not the problem - the problem is that the cycles are changing.
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NyanNyanKoneko
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of trolls, I don't mind a rational discussion about hot topics, but why don't we leave the personal attacks out of this? I mean, that doesn't help anyone.
I appreciate your input, and yes, I've read through wikipedia's article. Disregarding wikipedia's questionable credibility, it's an interesting read, though I disagree with your implications that a sizable amount of scientists are likely being payed off or being influenced by large economic entities.
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | I disagree with your implications that a sizable amount of scientists are likely being payed off or being influenced by large economic entities. |
Yet you have no problem at all accepting that some scientists buy into the scare game...hrm...I smell something...what is it? Oh yeah, that's right...it's called hypocrisy.
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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NyanNyanKoneko
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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I don't remember saying scientists are trying to scare people...
I have the feeling you two are trying to bait me... I'm not going to get angry if that's your plan. ^_^
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RuneLancer
Mage
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi LG! :)
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Endless Saga
An OpenGL RPG in the making. Now with new hosting!
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Uh oh, NNK figured out the master plan, Nephilim...we better form a new strategy.
:P
NNK, you wouldn't have posted a link to such utter crap if you didn't believe what they were saying. So yeah, although indirectly, you did say you believe that there are some who are buying into the scare game.
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | Speaking of trolls, I don't mind a rational discussion about hot topics, but why don't we leave the personal attacks out of this? I mean, that doesn't help anyone. |
| Matthew 7:3 wrote: | | And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? |
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Hah! Nephilim, you certainly beat me to it; I was awaiting an opportunity to mention something about recalling a story about this hippy (I think he was relatively left-winged for his time period), traipsing about the Roman wilderness, throwing out these dangerous and controversial ideas, such as, and I am pretty much paraphrasing here, "why comment upon the splinter in your brother's eye, when you say nothing about the beam in your own?" I also seem to recall something to the effect of, "let he whom is blameless throw the first stone."
Oddly enough, people really took to these controversial ideas, and started up a cult over them. It sort of pissed the Roman's off, royally. Although, to be fair, from how certain film makers have portrayed them, it really was not the Roman's that were pissed; it was a bunch of Religious nuts off their rockers.
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Last edited by LeoDraco on Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BadMrBox
Bringer of Apocalypse
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 1022
Location: Dark Forest's of Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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What is your world called NNK?
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NyanNyanKoneko
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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You guys have gone way off topic...
Also, please try to be respectful of other people's religious viewpoints. Calling Jesus a "hippie" might upset some people. You might want to be a bit more tactful about religious judgements.
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | You guys have gone way off topic...
Also, please try to be respectful of other people's religious viewpoints. Calling Jesus a "hippie" might upset some people. You might want to be a bit more tactful about religious judgements. |
Ya, opinions can only be given if they don't offend NNK here.
Personally, I think that if Jesus existed and did the shit he did, then he's a cool cat. Other than that, what absolutely everyone did to his message afterward completely fucked the world. Organized religion - well just religion in general, because if it's not organized, then it's just a philosophy - has poisoned the world throughout history. When any two people have clashing beliefs for which both cannot be proven with empirical evidence, then you get radicals that kill, start wars, become president, etc.
My stance is that religion is entirely wrong. Philosophies are good to have, since you can predict your behavior in the future and lay moral constructs for yourself. When you start saying that 2000-year-old dead guys are God and that you must believe in him or you'll burn forever, then you've lost all sense of morality and have just bought into a mythology that demands conformity and blood.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | You guys have gone way off topic...
Also, please try to be respectful of other people's religious viewpoints. Calling Jesus a "hippie" might upset some people. You might want to be a bit more tactful about religious judgements. |
That was entirely my point: Politics, just like Religion, is so inherently off-topic, that, barring fora specifically designated for the perusal of such topics, they become categorically taboo; while this is the off-topic forum around here, in my personal opinion, certain topics should not be discussed, especially for the reasons you cite.
And, as is, if you take a gander at the definition of hippie, I think that the common depiction of Jesus pretty well fits under that umbrella.
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