[tcaudilllg]

http://unitedinfinity.atspace.com/Projects/DHTML/Demo/MapTest/MapTest.html

http://unitedinfinity.atspace.com/Projects/DHTML/Demo/MapTest/LayerTest.html

RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

Instructions are included in the source. The first app only supports one layer; the second supports multiple layers.

[Ninkazu]

Ever going to do anything useful? Just wondering.

[tcaudilllg]

[RuneLancer]

I had to go digging through the source to figure out how to use it. :/ Well, no matter.

This is...
1- Slow.
2- VERY slow.
3- Useless. Seriously, how can you use this in a project?
4- Extremely slow.

DHTML is made to render websites. Not to run games. Sure, it can be done, but you can also try cutting your steak with a pen. Not only does the tool run terribly slowly, how can it be used in another project?
_________________
Endless Saga
An OpenGL RPG in the making. Now with new hosting!

[LeoDraco]

DFTFT.

At the very least, remember that He-Whom-Shall-Not-Be-Named has been chastised upon his 'leet DHTML skillz in the past, and has not taken a single step towards improving his form. In looking over the source, it remains every bit as backward and unsanitary as any other "code" posted therefrom.
_________________
"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake

[tcaudilllg]

[Ninkazu]

If people need to use some DHTML "program" to see a map mockup to feel like they're doing something, they're not fit to make games.

[Nephilim]

Well, it appears to work under Safari. I haven't looked at the source extensively, so I can't speak to code efficiency/appropriateness/speed, but I can say you might consider giving a multi-layer example in the source for your multi-layer version so people can cut-and-paste it to see how it works.

My main suggestion is to give the app an interface. It's really not clear how to use it when you load up the page. You should *never* have to "view source" to figure out how to use a web page. (Granted, you might envision this to be embedded elsewhere, but even then, you'll need context to get adoption from others, and they'll want to be able to embed it with instructions anyway. And if nothing else, at least add an interface for the people you're asking for feedback from. That's just common courtesy, and you'll get better feedback.)

For the actual application, I don't think it's very usable at this point. Even if you have internalized the input scheme, typing in a semicolon-delimited list isn't exactly the best interface for rapid-prototyping maps. For instance, this interface style doesn't make it very easy to make changes to the middle of the map if you don't like what you see (or get unexpected results) when you hit the "Draw" button.

If you really want to enable creativity, I think you'd benefit from an interface that allows more free-form drawing of the map, as in Tiled. You don't need all the functionality of Tiled to achieve the goals you expressed (get something up quickly for visualization and inspiration purposes), but you do need a way to interact with a "map", instead of "a series of semicolon-delimited cell values", if you expect the end user to be able to be creative with the application. Creativity is hella easier when you're "dragging a tree next to the lake" instead of "figuring out what number tile the tree is and counting through the text list to find position (x,y) and changing the number."
_________________
Visit the Sacraments web site to play the game and read articles about its development.

[RuneLancer]

What I still want to know is how this is any useful, even if it had a killer interface and highly-performant code backing it up. Any programmer with a hint of experience writing games will use a binary file format to store their maps for the sake of speed, to safeguard data against tampering, and to have complete control over what data is available to the map renderer. And short of houses and the likes, very few maps will be small.

Assuming someone would want to use a text format, though, I can't see why loading up the map in-game wouldn't be any better and more relevant than using this editor. It's not hard at all; I did it with Endless Saga (and its map format is VERY complex, using special packing methods to fit floating point decimal values into as little space as possible; currently 4 vertices (X,Y,Z, so 3 FP numerals) with 4 texture coordinates fits into 20 bytes.) I just edit the map in my map editor, hit F3 in ES, and pop! It's reloaded instantly and I can interact with it.

If I had to rely on a text format, my maps would be at least 30x bigger... :/

I could and will eventually put in a preview option in my map editor to make my work easier, but nothing, AT ALL, can beat trying a map in the game itself as it will be rendered when the player tries it out.

I hate to break this to you dude, but notepad could do a better job. At least that would allow you to directly edit your map instead of copy-pasting it into your map file. At least add an interface, that might be a start...
_________________
Endless Saga
An OpenGL RPG in the making. Now with new hosting!

[Nephilim]

[BadMrBox]

I dont understand. What is the function of the links you posted?
_________________

[tcaudilllg]

I meant it more as a proof of concept and learn-by-study tool. It is a complete tile map editor (if simple), and it implements the major functions of a tile map engine. In particular, the second version uses layers, which I'd been planning to implement for some time, but hadn't really conceptualized until now.

You can play around with the semicolons without breaking the system. I've carefully insulated it against bugs, so you can use whitespace to format your maps at will.

There doesn't seem to me to be a problem with simple RPGs that aren't that graphically intensive, especially on a webpage. Plus, most of us aren't trying to "push the envelope" with our game designs anyhow, because how does one try pushing the envelope in an age where every game function is designed by a massive team?

If nothing else, it's very easy for people to take this code and run with it, which is why it is public domain. I'd like to see someone put this to use besides me. :)

I envisioned, specifically, two uses for this program:
1) to provide previews of WIP games without needing to draw mockups.
2) to provide a general base on which to build more specific applications.

It's a starting point, not an end.

[RuneLancer]

I hate to be disagreeable, but it's hardly a map "editor." More like a map "renderer." An editor would allow you to edit the map through various tools, even if they're really simple ones. A renderer would simply display the map given an input. Which is what your script does.

Just curious, but have you ever considered learning and using RAD languages such as Visual Basic or Delphi? They would allow you to work on MUCH more powerful software than DHTML/javascript and, while they're not the kind of languages that would make you a well-respected programmer (people associate RAD languages with beginner programmer often, mainly because they're simple and easy languages) it would at least give you more credibility. To boot, because adding buttons and the likes on a form is so simple, it tempts you to push your application further and give it more features.

Ever since I've been here, you've been struggling with the highly sub-par performance of internet client-side scripting languages. As a result, your credibility and reputation as a developper have taken many blows. Maybe it's time to try something a little more powerful? I guarantee you your average RAD language is just as intuitive as DHTML/javascript, and to boot, interface design is immensely easier. Not to mention the fact that even (reasonably good yet) badly coded VB/Delphi/whatnot apps run far better than decently coded javascript scripts.

Rendering a large map may take a few seconds if you don't know too well what you're doing with VB, whereas with your script rendering a mere row takes roughly a second or two.
_________________
Endless Saga
An OpenGL RPG in the making. Now with new hosting!

[Nephilim]

[RuneLancer]

Hehe, don't get me wrong, JS is a decent scripting language when it comes to 2D games if decent heuristics are used to carry the game across to the player. What applies to programming languages doesn't apply to scripting languages most of the time because the environment is restrained sensibly.

I think the big mommma of JS RPGs would be Triglav. Which runs decently enough. The reason for this is because of the way the game works: it doesn't use tiles. Instead, there are maybe just a handfull of images onscreen at once, one of them being a big-ass jpg representing the ENTIRE map. Obviously creating the map with tiles would've killed the game's performance: moving a control in a window is far easier and faster than updating an array of say, 1000 (25x40 tiles onscreen.) Characters are all just overlaid animated gifs; the only things that change are the control's position and the path of the image itself.

This works fine because the authors had the common sense to restrict what gets managed to a minimum to compensate for JS's inability to work without going through the browser for just about everything. On a small side-note, I have practically all of Triglav's client-side data, images, scripts, and whatnots... if anyone wants specific resources to pick at. ;)

LG's problem seems to be that he intends to use JS like a programming language. That, and, no offense LG, sub-par code and algorithms. Ambition can only lead you so far; personal abilities and the tools you work with can make even the greatest project grind to a halt.
_________________
Endless Saga
An OpenGL RPG in the making. Now with new hosting!