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Z Gravity Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 6 Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:02 pm Post subject: Episodic RPGs |
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Another interesting idea I thought I might like to try sometime, but it might be a bit unrealistic to tackle. Or it might be a bit easier, I dunno. I sort of like the idea of having an RPG (or any game, really) that's set up in various episodes, each one getting added onto the previous one, but also a bit self-contained.
Mostly, I kinda like the way things evolve when the storyline isn't quite as... contiguous. Or some word like that. Various web-comics and stuff, even TV series', where things start out fairly simple, but the smallest details will eventually be important parts of future plotlines. Sometimes you wonder whether any of it was really planned, or whether it just turned out that way. Also kinda cool is that you can constantly be in the middle of a plot, and although a single arc might end, there's no reason you can't keep things going.
Only trouble with an rpg is how to keep things a bit more tightly connected. The characters and events are somewhat interactive, so you need to have the episodes linked through saved games, and would probably need to play them in sequence to get the full effect. Well maybe not... that's sort of like what Sierra's "Quest for Glory" series did, just having an option to import characters, or start a new one. But I had slightly smaller bits in mind, much shorter than a usual rpg or adventure game. Like only an hour or two of gameplay, maybe less. But, how would things handle if you miss a sidequest in an earlier episode, should certain things still be available later on, or would it be strictly linear.
Other problem would be whether or not the game really demands an end, or whether it could afford to just trail off after defeating one or two main villains and tying up some of the loose ends (still leaving things open for more stuff to happen though.....).
Anyway, I'm currently thinking about how the engine would have to be set up. I figure lots and lots of open-ended scripting, so new gameplay elements could be added later, and things like that. I figure that'd be the hardest part. Not to mention that I don't really know much about coding, so.... The thing is that I've now got a vague idea for a somewhat reasonable first game project (not necessarily first game ever, but first big thing, ya know), but now I've got the episode idea in my head, and I wonder if that's the answer to trying to come up with a huge game all at once, or whether it's a really complicated gimmick that would be even more trouble. Hmm.
The current plan, if anyone is interested, is a top-down shooter with some rpg stylings. Various different characters, party-based combat, pilot stats and skills, different mechs to pilot, etc. Just for the fun, I plan to have transforming mecha, alternating between more free-roaming ground combat and classic linear shoot-em-up action. It'd also include a bit of out-of-mech exploration, talking to people and stuff, so you'd get some episodes of story-building, some episodes of blowing up everything in sight. Could be fun. Not much plan for the story yet, but then again that's part of the fun (I hope :))
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Quickbeam Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess
Joined: 19 Nov 2002 Posts: 8 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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I remember a game from back in my rm2k days that was kind of episodic. I can't for the life of me remember the name, but it took place on this space station...Anyway, what they did was basically release the first episode, then they released like a patch thing so you could explore more areas and continue the game from your last save. The system worked quite nicely but I think the game kind of fizzled out.
The "episode patch" system isnt quite what you meant, because its not really standalone games, but it does take care of a number of the concerns you brought up.
As for the game you're planning, I can't imagine how you'd do a top-down shooter with party-based combat...but mech games are always entertaining. Sounds neat.
BTW, what happened to the other game you were working on? All those sweet Severin animations can't go to waste... ;)
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Z Gravity Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 6 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Shards of the Past, the other game, is sort of on hold. The programmer never really got the engine working right, and I ended up reworking the sprites seven or eight times before getting things looking fairly good. Doesn't mean I'm not going to eventually change my mind and go to 3d graphics or something either. The main thing about it though is that it's turning out to be a much more involved process than any of us knew it would be. So it's a future thing to try, still. Keeping the characters, but moving on to other stuff for a while.
Anyway, the combat system will basically be a matter of switching control of party members. Probably one main ship you get to control, and two wingmen, but then you can decide to control one of the wingmen and the roles shift. The problem there though is getting a good AI to work. It'd be annoying if guys keep getting killed when they're out of your control. But I'm thinking of using some sort of formation control, so you can arrange the three ships relative to your own position, and they'll follow your moves. So you can decide to have them line up on either side of you, single file, diagonally, pull in close, or just fly around at will.
But yeah, I kinda wanted each episode fairly self-contained. You have your in-game save points, but at the beginning and end of each chapter you export or import all the character and story data into a basic format. Some episodes might even be sort of non-linear, like a minor sidequest, or simultaneous events, but you can only complete them in a certain order. You can step in halfway through the series with default character settings, but you can't go backwards or repeat stuff.
Ya know, this is sounding more and more complicated all the time.... Maybe I'll worry about getting something that will actually work first :).
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Jihgfed Pumpkinhead Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 259 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 10:58 pm Post subject: Downloading Individual Chapters Only |
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If you were to require the player to play each of your chapters sequentially, I'd say, "sure, go for it!". I don't see how it could be too much more difficult than writing a normal game.
But if the player can start halfway through, or worse yet, skip chapters, that seems rather scary to me, particularly if there is going to be non-linear plot development within the levels themselves. I'm not saying it would be impossible, just that scripting would be damn difficult, and it's not something I would choose to do.
Here's an idea (although it's pretty crazy): make it so that each chapter is only one self-contained mission, and have selecting the chapter you're going to play be an element of the gameplay itself. Set up a web-page to act as "Mission Control" (I'm going to use lame titles; you can come up with something cooler), which describes all the missions you can currently select. So, you choose your mission, download, unzip, run, play, win, and when you're done, it'll generate a cookie for you, which you add to your browser, so that next time you go to "Mission Control", a different list of missions is presented to you, based on your choice of missions previously. Or maybe do the same sort of thing by uploading saved games, or something? The truth is I don't know much about such stuff, but it seems feasible.
Or what would be even more cool, you could run "Mission Control" from the player's computer, and FTP all the stuff down, even install and run it (although, please, please, please, make SURE you tell the user what you're doing, and give him the option to cancel or to do it himself if he likes).
Anyway, if you made it so that the only non-linear element is the mission the user chooses to download, I think you'll have much greater control, allowing you to make sure the plot doesn't get out from under you, but still allowing the player a lot of choice (and a sort of carrot for completing the game). This way, you don't need to make every new chapter you hand able to deal with all the possible variation in all the previous chapters. You can hand out different executables based on what has happened so far, making everything much more neat and concise that way, I think.
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Rainer Deyke Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002 Posts: 672
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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From a technical perspective, I see no problems. Write a generic engine that allows you to plug in episode files. Write the episode files. Optionally let the engine itself look for episodes on the web and download them. Nothing particularily challenging.
From an artistic perspective... There are three types of episodic art:
1. A single linear story broken into episodes, such that each episode advances the overall plot.
2. A series of distinct stories, only loosely connected through shared characters and setting.
3. Those that suck.
#1 basically requires that you plan out the entire plot upfront. #2 requires that you continually think of new and original ideas that fit into your overall framework. #3 is what happens when you don't have an overall plot and you don't have a constant stream of new ideas: the same story told over and over again in exchangable and disposable episodes.
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Jihgfed Pumpkinhead Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 259 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:03 am Post subject: Reply to Rainer and Making Gameplay Work and Good Luck |
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You're very blasé about it, Rainer. Has this (i.e., a series of executables comprising a single nonlinear game linked together via automatic downloading of some kind) been done before?
I think Rainer Deyke's right about the story: you'll either have to work very hard or be very clever.
That said, story's not everything, and gameplay, in my opinion, will take you much further. You might want to give a fair amount of thought to how to expand gameplay in different chapters/releases, particularly as this would, I think, be rather difficult (unless you decide to simply bury your gameplay innovations at the beginning, and release them in subsequent instalments, which would take a lot of work at the beginning). Gee, looks like you'll have to be industrious or clever either way you look at it.
Well, here's wishing you the best of cleverness and industry. Oh, and luck. Good luck! Actually, I think it all sounds rather cool, and I'd really like to see it happen and play it.
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Adam Mage
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 Posts: 416 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:50 am Post subject: |
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you just know the plot is going to turn into a soap opera :D
but if it was it would allow people to jump in at any time, just kill someone off or have amarrage every so often.
to fix the problem of adding new features id just make a seperate exe in charge of getting new episodes, then it could patch the main exe whenever ts needed. _________________ https://numbatlogic.com
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LeoDraco Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 584 Location: Riverside, South Cali
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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There are two major console games that are episodic at the moment: .hack and Xenosaga. At the end of each episode of .hack, you have the option of saving your game, which converts your save file into a file that can be loaded into the next episode. (This allows people who have already built up parties in previous episodes to continue using those parties, while also allowing people who have yet to play previous episodes to start anywhere they like.) Xenosaga should have the same mechanism, but I have yet to actually finish it; however, as I was only around level 30 at the end of episode 1, I assume that is the case.
You could always do something like what some MMOs do: have a centralized location from which you get "missions" to go out on, release with the engine 20 or so missions, and release patches periodically with more missions. Sure, this really isn't linear play, but it is an idea.
One of the more interesting aspects of writing an episodic RPG is that you would technically only have to write one engine, assuming that it is flexible enough for your needs. You would then only have to release content to run off that engine every so often. So, from a technical standpoint, you could release a beta engine with an hour or so of gameplay, see what people think, and mess with details. (I remember that was what Tsugumo and FrozenEmu did with Untitled. Course, that was because everyone was bugging them to see a demo, but the point remains valid.) _________________ "...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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DarkDread Wraith Lord
Joined: 28 May 2002 Posts: 422 Location: behind your bushes
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Just to chime in, Golden Sun is episodic as well, in case nobody's mentioned it... I just sorta poured over this thread, heh.
Anyway, my two cents... the main problem I see, is each game would be coded for a potentially smaller, and smaller audience... if you're gonna use the same engines/code anyway, might as well make a sequel that can be played without experiencing the first. _________________ "Goth is a way for ugly people to be interesting."
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DrunkenCoder Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 559
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Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Lot's of old cRPGs use systems like theese, like some of the Might and Magic series and ton's of othergames just like it, it alows you to export you party from one game and import it in the (stand alone) sequel the great thing about it all is that you don't miss out of anything if you start in the middle (well sort of) but if you've experienced it from the begining you get really attatched to your party and quite simply can't quit. _________________ If there's life after death there is no death, if there's no death we never live. | ENTP
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BigManJones Scholar
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 196
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Someone mentioned web comics and this got me thinking; how about doing the engine as an applet and allowing the player to pick which episode to play? The game could be save to a file on the server or saved at the end of the episode (like someone was saying you could do with Xenosaga) then the player could pick the next episode and play it. I haven't seen a rpg engine/applet, but it would be doable.
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