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Bjorn
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 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject: Tiled 0.3.0 release |
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As the latest news posts sais, biggerUniverse and I have released Tiled today, a tiled map editor we've been working on for the past weeks. See http://tiled.rpgdx.net/.
So what do you people thing about the editor and its map format? Would you consider using it with your engine? There still are quite a lot of things planned for this editor, and quite some things might still need to be changed to be more flexible towards different engines.
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Ninkazu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Closed-source = poo face.
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biggerUniverse
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ninkazu wrote: | | Closed-source = poo face. |
I couldn't agree more. svn://www.biggeruniverse.com/tiled Sorry, it's not browsable yet. Just download Subversion and you can checkout the project.
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Ninkazu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I installed it, not how do I get the svn protocol working?
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Bjorn
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Right, the project is released under GPL, as indicated by the COPYING file in the release. I guess we'll have to make it more visible. As such, not only suggestions, but patches are welcome too! :-)
Edit: I guess we'll have a source release soon, I'm working on it...
Last edited by Bjorn on Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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janus
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ninkazu wrote: | | I installed it, not how do I get the svn protocol working? |
Subversion is a server application, you need a SVN client to do a checkout. He should've pointed you towards TortoiseSVN, a nice Win32 SVN client with shell integration.
Also, Bjorn, if you want people to use your format you need to at least release some specs, if not a reference library, under a less restrictive license.
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Ninkazu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bah, I don't want to restart.... I'll check it out later.
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Bjorn
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, though the map format should be pretty stable this being the first release of the editor in progress, changes might still be expected. Specs and a format description will be released with version 0.4.0 or sooner.
While the editor is under GPL, an engine that uses the map format will be free to stay proprietary. However unwise it is, we'll allow developers their stubbornness. ;-)
| Quote: | | Bah, I don't want to restart.... I'll check it out later. |
Sure. Only why restart? This is Java, should run almost everywhere...
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biggerUniverse
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Janus wrote: | | Ninkazu wrote: | | I installed it, not how do I get the svn protocol working? |
Subversion is a server application, you need a SVN client to do a checkout. He should've pointed you towards TortoiseSVN, a nice Win32 SVN client with shell integration.
Also, Bjørn, if you want people to use your format you need to at least release some specs, if not a reference library, under a less restrictive license. |
Sorry, Ninkazu, I did send you in the wrong direction there.
As to the format, there is a DTD for the xml that didn't make it into the zip (my fault), and as Bjørn said, there is still some inherent fluidity. Hopefully, for anyone who is thinking about early adoption, the files are fairly straightforward to read, and there is always Bjørn or I as reference.
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Ninkazu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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I restarted, and how the FUCK are you supposed to use this tortoise shit? It says it's tortoiseMerge when I run it, but its documentation is for SVN, and what the FUCK!
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Bjorn
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Look, you can stop cursing because this is really not our problem. TortoiseSVN is just a suggestion and when you care to learn how it works it'll allow you to check out the source from our repository. When you're in Linux, you can do the same with the svn command line client much easier. Don't act like it's all too complicated, Subversion is just like CVS but simpler to use and more advanced under the hood, try to show some patience.
Other than that, if you just want a look at the source, there is now no need for any of this software anymore. I've put online both a binary and a source release now, see the website.
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Rainer Deyke
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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My initial impressions:- How do I actually do something with this? No documentation, nonintuitive architecture.
- I'm used to grabbing tiles with the right mouse button and placing tiles with the left mouse button. Having to switch tools just to grab a tile is awkward.
- Having to go through menus and dialog boxes just to create a new tile is also awkward.
- The map layer architecture (with one tile per map cell per layer) also seems awkward to me. Appearantly I'm only able to affect one layer at a time? I'm used to operating on map cells, where ecah cell can contain an arbitrary number of tiles stacked on top of each other.
- Overall verdict: It's free, but it does nothing for me that TileStudio, which is also free, doesn't already do.
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Bjorn
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your feedback!
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | - How do I actually do something with this? No documentation, nonintuitive architecture.
- I'm used to grabbing tiles with the right mouse button and placing tiles with the left mouse button [snip]
- Having to go through menus and dialog boxes just to create a new tile is also awkward.
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Documentation is a very week point at the moment indeed, and some parts of the program can still feel a bit awkward. Being able to grab tiles with the right mouse button is a nice feature indeed, expect it in the next version. Selection of new tiles will become available through a tile palette that we plan to place below the list of layers.
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | - The map layer architecture (with one tile per map cell per layer) also seems awkward to me. Appearantly I'm only able to affect one layer at a time? I'm used to operating on map cells, where ecah cell can contain an arbitrary number of tiles stacked on top of each other.
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This is a tricky thing, because those two architectures are fundamentally different. Can Tile Studio do that? Do you have any ideas about how we could support both?
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | - Overall verdict: It's free, but it does nothing for me that TileStudio, which is also free, doesn't already do.
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One big difference is that TileStudio is for Windows and our map editor is portable. Another is that we have support for isometric maps (and more types will follow). Also, our map and tileset formats are based on XML. There is lots of other differences and of course TileStudio has a lot of features our editor doesn't have yet. But we don't mean to build a TileStudio clone, Tiled is supposed to be more useful. :-P
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Rainer Deyke
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is a tricky thing, because those two architectures are fundamentally different. Can Tile Studio do that? |
My proprietary map format has an arbitrary number of tiles per map cell. TileStudio only has up to three - a top layer, a middle layer, and a bottom layer - but most operations act on all three layers at the same time.
| Quote: | | Do you have any ideas about how we could support both? |
Instead of making one layer the active layer, allow the user to select any set of layers as active by adding another checkbox next to each layer. Instead of having one selected tile that is drawn to the active layer, have one selected tile (which may be the null tile) per active layer. Drawing or grabbing tiles affects all active layers simultaneously.
| Quote: | | One big difference is that TileStudio is for Windows and our map editor is portable. Another is that we have support for isometric maps (and more types will follow). |
Another thing is that Tiled has tile flags, which is a rather critical feature that's still missing from TileStudio at this point. I've been meaning to add that feature to TileStudio, but I keep putting it off because I hate working in Delphi.
Actually I'm not all that fond of TileStudio. However, it is a working solution, which Tiled isn't at this point.
| Quote: | | Also, our map and tileset formats are based on XML. |
That's not much of a difference actually. TileStudio has a programmable exporter that can easily be taught to output XML.
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biggerUniverse
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Another thing is that Tiled has tile flags, which is a rather critical feature that's still missing from TileStudio at this point. I've been meaning to add that feature to TileStudio, but I keep putting it off because I hate working in Delphi. |
Please feel free to add feature requests at http://www.biggeruniverse.com/projects/flyspray/ and, we will be adding everyone's suggestions so they don't get forgotten. As far as tile flags go, that will be replaced probably during the 0.3.x phase in favor of a key-value property pair, so that it is more generally useful to all engines, regardless of tile flag implementation. It will remain per-tile, and will serve the same purpose as the current impl.
| Quote: | | My proprietary map format has an arbitrary number of tiles per map cell. TileStudio only has up to three - a top layer, a middle layer, and a bottom layer - but most operations act on all three layers at the same time. |
Ok. I downloaded TileStudio and looked around for a while on the Charlie.tsp example. I think I understand something more about what you mean by this.
I see the three layers that you're talking about, and that you can select a tile for each, and pencil draws them on their respective layer on the map. Because Tiled supports infinite layers, implementing it that way could get unwieldy. However, when brushes (brushable textures) are implemented, brushes that span multiple concurrent layers could be incorporated. Am I understanding you correctly?
Also, at least as I understand it, not only does the map have layer 'dimensions', but the tiles themselves can as well (something like tile 'states'), each optionally animated.
Animated tiles are a proposed feature of Tiled, but that may be as close as it comes to TileStudio in this regard.
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