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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
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 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: Games reinforce impossible standards of beauty |
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Duh. Shut up about it.
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valderman
Mage
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 334
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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[sarcasm]Wow, I'm really glad you told me, or I wouldn't have noticed![/sarcasm] >_<
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http://www.weeaboo.se
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Tenshi
Everyone's Peachy Lil' Bitch
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 386
Location: Newport News
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Duh. Shut up about it. |
- It's a forum. Don't like it? Don't read.
- As I mentioned to you in IMs, there's nothinig wrong with having the average character be a hero. I mean, if it's Okay for a woman to have super-human strength and don all of these super-weapons and heavy crap and such and still look like a Super-model, then why is it a man (I'm generalizing) has have incredible muscle mass in order to accomplish the same feats?
- Maybe some guys like playing huge muscle-bound men 'cause that's what they like. I don't. The argument can't go one way and say that women should be able to believe that they can accomplish absolutely anything and still look like a slender, feminine bombshell, and yet guys have to look like massive body-builders and .. egh... in my opinion, unattractive. Checking the majority of male MMORPG characters in Star Wars Galaxies... very, very few characters have a ton of muscle mass. Why's that?
- Taking the argument another way... if guys have to be so huge to save the world, why don't women? And you know, I'm not saying that out of preference, because I don't find female body-builders attractive. Quite frankly, they're really nasty looking. "Because that doesn't sell" Well, that's the point. It's based around sex. I hate that.
- I'm going running before it gets too cold out.
- Discuss.
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- Jaeda
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tenshi wrote: |
- Maybe some guys like playing huge muscle-bound men 'cause that's what they like. I don't. The argument can't go one way and say that women should be able to believe that they can accomplish absolutely anything and still look like a slender, feminine bombshell, and yet guys have to look like massive body-builders and .. egh... in my opinion, unattractive. Checking the majority of male MMORPG characters in Star Wars Galaxies... very, very few characters have a ton of muscle mass. Why's that?
- Taking the argument another way... if guys have to be so huge to save the world, why don't women? And you know, I'm not saying that out of preference, because I don't find female body-builders attractive. Quite frankly, they're really nasty looking. "Because that doesn't sell" Well, that's the point. It's based around sex. I hate that.
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See, I understand your FEELINGS, my problem with what you are doing here is trying to force out a logical argument to put your feelings "in the right." It's quite alright to feel that sex is icky and doesn't belong in the world of video games. That statement may sound trite, but I don't intend it that way. It really is fine to feel that way. But you've contocted this massive, wish-washy, opinionated "logical argument" in an effort to completely discard other opinions on the matter.
I have to admit you have made so many DIFFERENT points on the matter I seem to have lost track of what exactly your contention is.
One of your arguments seems to be that characters should not have accenuated or obvious gender traits. Another argument you have seems to suggest that accentuated or obvious gender traits in female characters is descriminatory. Another is that accentuated or obvious gender traits in females is incapacitating and handicaps women to the point that they cannot be "heroes"- although the amount of food-mass the muscle-bound heroes (who are distasteful yet somehow more feasible) would need to ingest (even though RPG heroes dont need to eat anything) would make the hard-up wandering hero lifestyle inpossible (you would be much more likely to see an immaciated hero who understood how to use his joints and body poisitioning to provide the leverage needed for strength). Yet none of this addresses the fact that all of the heroes are always well-groomed and shower-fresh looking (except for a few trickles of blood every now and then), a reality present in both male and female characters in RPGs.
I hope I'm accurately communicating how far over the map this argument has been traveling and how it is capable of traveling even further all over the place if continued.
In short, my problem with this argument is that there IS no argument, simply an incoherent string of angst against a particular aesthetic style predominating the ART world. A world, I might add, that never has and never will make any claims toward providing an accurate reflection of reality. And it certainly will never make any personal guarnantees for any one individual to always suit that person's tastes.
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Tenshi
Everyone's Peachy Lil' Bitch
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 386
Location: Newport News
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ThousandKnives wrote: | | See, I understand your FEELINGS, my problem with what you are doing here is trying to force out a logical argument to put your feelings "in the right." It's quite alright to feel that sex is icky and doesn't belong in the world of video games. That statement may sound trite, but I don't intend it that way. It really is fine to feel that way. But you've contocted this massive, wish-washy, opinionated "logical argument" in an effort to completely discard other opinions on the matter. |
- I started off presenting my "argument" as feelings, starting with "I think" and "I believe", and such, but you know what, people tend to dismiss and belittle arguments like that. Downgrading what I have taken the time to research, query, and experience back to merely "FEELINGS" is insulting.
- Back then, my arguments were countered with "Well do you get to throw magic fireballs in real life"? Yet then they'd turn right around and argue about the mechanics of a kick or a walk. Why do those mechanics matter but not .. oh... breasts? So you know what, I took the time to "look it up dear." So I'd appreciate if you'd not simply dismiss what I say as mere "feelings".
- I gave up on trying to make people adopt my ideologies / philosophies / "feelings" a long time ago. I'm just saying my piece. In fact, this whole argument was started because I said in the "professions" thread that I don't want to become a sell-out because it contradicts my ideals. I can't change the way everyone else likes to do things, but I can not "conform" and do it how I want, and who knows... maybe I'll exact a change through my own products.
- I do have the right to justify what I have said with logic, since after all, what I'm saying is being challenged from every angle, so far so good.
| Quote: | I have to admit you have made so many DIFFERENT points on the matter I seem to have lost track of what exactly your contention is.
One of your arguments seems to be that characters should not have accenuated or obvious gender traits. Another argument you have seems to suggest that accentuated or obvious gender traits in female characters is descriminatory. Another is that accentuated or obvious gender traits in females is incapacitating and handicaps women to the point that they cannot be "heroes"- although the amount of food-mass the muscle-bound heroes (who are distasteful yet somehow more feasible) would need to ingest (even though RPG heroes dont need to eat anything) would make the hard-up wandering hero lifestyle inpossible (you would be much more likely to see an immaciated hero who understood how to use his joints and body poisitioning to provide the leverage needed for strength). |
- In synopsis, men and women should be portrayed more-or-less equally. Take something like Ragnarok Online, for example. Look at the difference in classes. Guys are generally well-covered, and yet the females are scantily clad. This is a general theme across many games. If all the men in a game were scantily clad AND the women were scantily clad also , I'd leave the game alone. If the guys have to be huge and muscle-bound to kick ass, then the women should, too. If the women don't, the men shouldn't have to be, either. If not, then there'd better be some serious explaining (Because I'm a huge bitch about details, I want to know *why*, and I will keep asking *why* until I get an answer I am satisfied with) to make up for it. Why are all the women hot skinny bombshells kicking super-beef-man bubba's ass? Well, the women were all beautiful and gifted with super-human strength and the men weren't. Why? Because. Plothole. I hate plotholes. I've scrapped years worth of work off of plot holes.
- No, I haven't always been this way. It's a realization I "woke up" to not too long ago. My designs haven't always been this way, either. They were dictated by what was popular. ANd you know what, I began to wonder why I couldn't find women that matched those designs conveyed by these games and shows. Answer? They don't exist, or if they do, they are so damn rare it's ridiculous. But yet they're conveyed as though the entire world's population must be made up of them.
Look at this:
Kirei Enjeru, then & almost now
- The one on the left was rendered back in high school around the 10th or 11th grade. And the one on the right is about a year old. I still remember one of my lady friends giving me weird comments about the one on the left, and now I know why. In fact, the model on the right doesn't even fit her background. What now? Scrap and redesign.
| Quote: | | Yet none of this addresses the fact that all of the heroes are always well-groomed and shower-fresh looking (except for a few trickles of blood every now and then), a reality present in both male and female characters in RPGs. |
- Women don't sweat, they "glow". And trust me, I don't like that whole bit, either. So what should I do? Portray differently.
| Quote: | | I hope I'm accurately communicating how far over the map this argument has been traveling and how it is capable of traveling even further all over the place if continued. |
- It's a forum, discussion, debating, comparing / contrasting ideas is the point, is it not?
| Quote: | | In short, my problem with this argument is that there IS no argument, simply an incoherent string of angst against a particular aesthetic style predominating the ART world. |
- So you're saying it's best to just lay on my back and play dead? Incoherent? I noticed a general theme, maybe it's just me.
| Quote: | | A world, I might add, that never has and never will make any claims toward providing an accurate reflection of reality. And it certainly will never make any personal guarnantees for any one individual to always suit that person's tastes. |
"Better physics engines", "Better jiggle algorithms", "More realistic skin maps".
- and never will make any claims toward providing an accurate reflection of reality
- How about now?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/11/07/digital.diva.reut/index.html
- Blink.
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- Jaeda
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Tenshi wrote: | - I started off presenting my "argument" as feelings, starting with "I think" and "I believe", and such, but you know what, people tend to dismiss and belittle arguments like that. Downgrading what I have taken the time to research, query, and experience back to merely "FEELINGS" is insulting.
- Back then, my arguments were countered with "Well do you get to throw magic fireballs in real life"? Yet then they'd turn right around and argue about the mechanics of a kick or a walk. Why do those mechanics matter but not .. oh... breasts? So you know what, I took the time to "look it up dear." So I'd appreciate if you'd not simply dismiss what I say as mere "feelings".
...
- I do have the right to justify what I have said with logic, since after all, what I'm saying is being challenged from every angle, so far so good. |
But see, that's the problem: you are trying to justify "sensibility" -- a purely emotional grasp of reality -- through "logistics"; the two are mutually exclusive. Emotion is not justifiable by logic. You may not think that what you are presenting is feelings, but that's certainly what it comes across as. And citing sources none of the rest of us have either (a) read, or (b) heard of? Your sources are just as credible as Happy, Mandrake, or Golrien.
| Quote: | | - I gave up on trying to make people adopt my ideologies / philosophies / "feelings" a long time ago. I'm just saying my piece. In fact, this whole argument was started because I said in the "professions" thread that I don't want to become a sell-out because it contradicts my ideals. I can't change the way everyone else likes to do things, but I can not "conform" and do it how I want, and who knows... maybe I'll exact a change through my own products. |
More than likely, you won't.
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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Tenshi
Everyone's Peachy Lil' Bitch
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 386
Location: Newport News
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But see, that's the problem: you are trying to justify "sensibility" -- a purely emotional grasp of reality -- through "logistics"; the two are mutually exclusive. |
- So.. it's sensible to wear more than a bikini in the desert, but yet cannot be logical to wear more than a bikini in the desert, because the two are mutually exclusive?
| Quote: | | You may not think that what you are presenting is feelings, but that's certainly what it comes across as. |
- I never said they weren't feelings. I said I have gone to back up those feelings.
| Quote: | | And citing sources none of the rest of us have either (a) read, or (b) heard of? |
- WomenGamers.com
- "A Woman's Body" - Dr. Merriam Shepphard (do you need the Copyright date and publisher, too?)
- I have linked you to all other sources I have cited (from news sites like CNN). Whether you choose / do not choose to read them is not my concern.
- But yes, the word-of-mouth bits are as applicable as those arguments opposing mine.
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- Jaeda
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grenideer
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:03 am Post subject: |
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A guy's gonna be muscle-bound and edgy and a woman's gonna be skinny and curvy. Why? Because those are the ideals of beauty for each gender in our society. Women can complain that they are not as hot or graceful as their electronic counterparts, and men can complain that they're not as hot or cool as theirs. When it gets down to it you're just complaining.
Now to take this whole thing back a bit and look at the big picture, I'd be ignorant to say that these standards affect men just as much as women. The problem is, your argument has nothing to do with video games and everything to do with society. You're certainly allowed your opinion and can dislike whatever you want, but the products of society won't change before the people do.
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