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valderman
Mage
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 334
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | most people who will play the games done in the style of an indie-rpg console style game will most likely have played the snes RPG’s on an emulator. |
Probably, but I for one didn't have a clue about the default keys, since I always immediately reconfigure them to my liking.
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Sirocco
Mage
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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I just would not like to use the escape button to escape from a menu. Esc, to me, feels like you should exit the game with it. IE: to me, as an a gamer, ESC to exit a menu is counter-intuitive. |
Nor do I. Unless the game's design requires otherwise, I'd like to see the ACCEPT/CANCEL keys suitably close to one another, and mapped throughout the game, so that using the ESC key is never necessary. I normally reserve the ESC key for system-level functions, such as abandoning the game or returning to the main menu.
If you pretend the keyboard is a gamepad, and map your keys accordingly, you can achieve an intuitive (and flexible) layout that is consistent throughout the entire game. On a gamepad, you never have to reach eight inches to press the one button that closes the menu ;)
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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That’s also a very good argument for us not to use the enter button. It’s too much of a distance from the other buttons.
This is the “virtual” joystick (ie: keyboard mappings) I’m going to use then, (unless someone complains):
Arrow-keys –moving through the map/menu
Left-shift – button1
z- button2
alt- button3
space-button 4.
I’m going to change that now, as well as some of the earlier wordings.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Valderman wrote: | | Quote: | | most people who will play the games done in the style of an indie-rpg console style game will most likely have played the snes RPG’s on an emulator. |
Probably, but I for one didn't have a clue about the default keys, since I always immediately reconfigure them to my liking. |
Hear, hear. My current key mappings for snes9x use WASD for movement, numpad 8456 for yxba, and numpad 7/9 for L/R.
Personally, I believe most of this discussion to be perfectly silly: a much better idiom to adhere to would be user-customization; I would feel more like playing a game if I knew I could alter the default controls to something that I myself find more usable. While I agree that self-consistency is a desired quality, I disagree that standards for key-mappings is a good thing; half of the creative effort in programming is design. Standards occasionally have a way of stifling creativity.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I disagree that standards for key-mappings is a good thing; half of the creative effort in programming is design. Standards occasionally have a way of stifling creativity.
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But, if you allow the user to change the design, doesn’t that prevent the creativity that you say is stifled by the standards? Keyboard mappings should not be an area of creativity. There are much more interesting areas of a design were you can show your creativity and still keep usability. I don’t find all standards stifling. Without standards, My C++ applications would only compile on windows.
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I’d have to disagree with that. A large percentage of games do not use this interface. I myself HATE the escape to exit a menu. This was done by DarkDread (no offense man) in one of his games and it was the most counter-intuitive part of it. |
If you've played PC games like Commander Keen or Doom, or are familiar with using escape to exit menus. IMO console-style RPGs on the PC are still first and foremost PC games, and should adhere to the standards set by other PC games where possible.
Personally I like using ESC to exit menus.
| Quote: | Arrow-keys –moving through the map/menu
Left-shift – button1
z- button2
alt- button3
space-button 4. |
The control/alt/shift keys have the advantage that they can be used in any combination on any keyboard and the disadvantage that they are often mapped to special functionality. I would avoid these keys unless they are intended to be used in combinations with each other or with other keys.
| Quote: | | Personally, I believe most of this discussion to be perfectly silly: a much better idiom to adhere to would be user-customization; I would feel more like playing a game if I knew I could alter the default controls to something that I myself find more usable. |
I'm all for user customization. However, the default key mapping must still be usable enough that one can navigate to the keybaord config menu without too many difficulties.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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You're missing the point.
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Sirocco
Mage
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:39 am Post subject: |
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I think we can all agree on some things at this point:
1. User customization is a good thing, but the default layout should be good enough for Average Joe Whogivesafuck. In fact, the default layout should be good enough where I don't think it's worth the trouble to remap my keys.
2. Be consistent. If the X key backs you out of the item menu, it should work for *every* menu in the game.
3. Minimize buttons/keys to a point. More than four unique buttons is just too much, and leads to button-thrashing mania that plagues modern console games. It's probably a good idea to assign two buttons to ACCEPT and CANCEL when inside menus unless you plan to use mouse I/O.
4. Don't mix input devices unless you can easily and intuitively control the entire game from either device.
The idea (IMO) isn't to standardize input, but to set up guidelines for creating high quality user interfaces, something that indie games tend to ignore. I personally hold this aspect of game design close to the top, as controls are your conduit to the experience as much as graphics and sound. No one wants to drive their brand new Masserati with a trackball :)
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| Quote: | If you've played PC games like Commander Keen or Doom, or are familiar with using escape to exit menus.
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Familiar: Yes. Satisfied with it: No. Ultimately you have to tailor your UI to fit your game, but if I'm trying to emulate the console experience I shouldn't be setting up my input so I have to wander all over the keyboard to get things done.
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Happy
JonA's American snack pack
Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: | | Keyboard mappings should not be an area of creativity. |
No. They really should. However, I'm not saying you shouldn't provide a sample default mapping.
The thing with standards is they provide a certain level of flexibility within the standard. With you saying the 'RPGDX GUI Standard' should include a keyboard map means there will be no flexibility. If you say the 'RPGDX GUI Standard' should include a default keyboard map with provisions on customizable controls, then the flexibility will be there.
Metakeys, Mandrake! Metakeys!
You should concentrate on the interactions of the 'metakeys' (Accept, Cancel, Up, Down, et cetera) between the different layers of input (Character Movement, Menu Level 1, et cetera) than the mapping of said metakeys.
Also, I point you towards GNOME Human Interface Guidelines which might give you a bit more of an idea on how to do a recommendation.
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white_door
Icemonkey
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 243
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I feel that the keyboard layout in a RPG should be reasonable. It should be fairly easy to reach most of the keys you need to without moving your hands or wrists (just fingers). And each key should always have the same meaning everywhere in the game.
(Granted user mapping can help with this, since the user can change the mapping if it sucks or if they prefer another type of mapping.)
However its far more important that the player knows what the keyboard layout is. This should be in the documentation, but is that really enough?? Many console RPGs give the player the meaning of the buttons through dialog or cutscene during the beginning of the gameplay.
So basically I feel that it doesn't matter exactly which keys a developer chooses to use as long as they are easy enough to reach and the player knows what they are.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | However its far more important that the player knows what the keyboard layout is. This should be in the documentation, but is that really enough?? Many console RPGs give the player the meaning of the buttons through dialog or cutscene during the beginning of the gameplay. |
Problem. In a console RPG, you have a limited number of commands, so you can *get* to the starting gameplay. If the player does not know what the “accept” button is in the menu, and the game starts off with a load-save-continue style menu, how do they know which button to press?
If you give them a cutscene when the game starts up, that would get annoying. If you have a help button (like f1) to show them a cutscene, the same problem arises: how do they know which button to press?
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Sirocco
Mage
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I've gotten in the habit of placing reminders at the bottom of the menu screens (see Frenetic Plus for reference), so players won't feel totally clueless. I think I'm going to carry that through into my next few projects as well.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm. Well if we combine reminders on the bottoms of menu's, as well as the metakeys concept, I can rewrite this as a sort of GUI guidelines, with a default metakey mapping similiar to the one we mentioned earlier. This way we have a basis for a metakey standard and a guideline on how the user should interact with the game.
Rewrite underway.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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ok, currently rewriting and restructering it. Probably have more up sometime next week.
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think if anything...two issues need to be resolved.
1. Game makers need to create README files which have the controls clearly laid out.
2. Game players need to actually read these things. They're not there for decoration, you know.
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