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Xegnma
Monkey-Butler
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 53
Location: Trapped in Middle Earth
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 Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nice discussion so far....
There is a very good series of online article by a prominent game designer you guy's might be interested in reading.One of those articles covers this very topic.
Here's a link to the article list:
Ernest Adam's Designers Notebook Columns
And here'a a direct link to the article in question:
Let’s Put the Magic Back in Magic
I think this article will provide some more food for thought on this issue, I hope you guys read it.
| LeoDraco wrote: | On topic: the cost to cast the spell could be related to its use. So, as a heavily used spell is "fresher" in the mind of the mage, its invocation cost could be less than its base cost, making it more desirable to be cast than a mostly disused spell, whose invocation cost would be greater than its base cost. A heavily used spell would therefore be, initially, more useful to the user. However, factor in the enemy's gradual adaptation to regularly used commands, and the spell would eventually cause very little damage (even at a propitious cost). So, the mage would be more useful for a smaller amount of mana/mp, but only for a short while.
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Ahh..the use it or lose it approach. I like...
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Barok
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 248
Location: Bushland of Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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has anyone ever played golden sun? In that game magic is something you have to use in AND out of battle. Naturally this leads to a big drain on mp... so mp is recharged outside of battle. Like, 5 steps for 1 mp. However, the mp cannot be recharged in safe zones, ala towns or shrines or anyplace you can't get in battles. I think this works, because you can't just run around in circles because you'll get into a battle fairly quickly, you can't wait because it won't do anything, and you can't go to a town and run around because that won't do anything as well. Magic only recharges where you need it.
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MyNameIsJeff
I wanna be a ballerina!
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Nebraska, United States
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I found Golden Sun to be very boring. I got all of the characters and then never beat it.
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Xegnma wrote: | And here'a a direct link to the article in question:
Let’s Put the Magic Back in Magic
I think this article will provide some more food for thought on this issue, I hope you guys read it. |
That's a good read. Lots of food for thought. Thanks for posting that.
My only complaint is that I would like to have heard a little more about his implementation ideas. He says that magic needs to be *coded* differently, which is a titillating assertion, but he just drops it there.
No matter - that's what forums are about, right? What ideas do you guys have for making magic fundamentally different in your RPG game worlds, even at the coding level?
One idea I had was to use neural nets / fuzzy logic for magic, and make it a separate, permeating entity that gets interacted with, rather than directed. It has its own way of doing things, its own goals and behaviors, which you can sometimes direct and sometimes can't.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well, first I think that he's wrong. If you hand somebody an atomic bomb in real life is one thing, you hand it to them in a video game and I think you'll get the same response as teh magic wand. Oh boy, a new toy. It's the problem with video games- even with suspension of disbelief we are still distanced from the game- we have only a vague emotional attatchment.
Anyway- I think we should think more about how magic works in the universe we are creating. Too many games have fallen back on stat-based magic (ie: wizards are magical batteries that know spells and get drained from using them but can be refilled). I like your organic magic theory, that it's a living entity. Make sure the world incorperates that. Another thing I think would be neat is if magic can only be embedded into objects, not learned and used on the fly. Like, you can only put spells into things, and then use those objects. Not cast spells on their own. Or an alchemy based magic like in Ultima 4- where you have to collect herbs and ingredients to cast spells.
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: | | Well, first I think that he's wrong. If you hand somebody an atomic bomb in real life is one thing, you hand it to them in a video game and I think you'll get the same response as teh magic wand. Oh boy, a new toy. It's the problem with video games- even with suspension of disbelief we are still distanced from the game- we have only a vague emotional attatchment. |
Good point. Of course, that means it's all the more effective if we come up with innovative ways to have magic work in our RPG worlds; some genuine player interest can help replace what they don't connect with in terms of character.
| Mandrake wrote: | | Anyway- I think we should think more about how magic works in the universe we are creating. Too many games have fallen back on stat-based magic (ie: wizards are magical batteries that know spells and get drained from using them but can be refilled). |
Agreed. And I think his suggestion that coding magic differently frees you to use it differently in the game world. Normally, I'd say that you should let the story drive the implementation, but it seems to me that there might be something to be gained there by at least doing some experimentation - especially if you make a magical system that has emergent behavior rather than planned behavior. It would be kind of cool to construct an RPG where even the game designers and programmers don't really know how magic will behave...
| Mandrake wrote: | | I like your organic magic theory, that it's a living entity. Make sure the world incorperates that. |
After reading that, I realized that what I wrote before sounds a lot like "Use the force, Luke!" Really, that's not what I had in mind. Heh.
| Mandrake wrote: | | Another thing I think would be neat is if magic can only be embedded into objects, not learned and used on the fly. Like, you can only put spells into things, and then use those objects. Not cast spells on their own. Or an alchemy based magic like in Ultima 4- where you have to collect herbs and ingredients to cast spells. |
Ahh, the Ultima 4 magic system was pretty cool for its time, wasn't it? Interesting way to limit the power of mages and connect the magic to the game world - make them quest for rare reagents to cast the powerful spells.
I was tinkering with a similar idea to the "magic embedded in objects" thing in early drafts of Sacraments (or rather, the larger RPG which Sacraments ended up being a mini-version of). Unfortunately, the idea didn't make the cut when I was de-scoping the story. A simplified version of these magic-rich objects makes a plot-level appearance in Sacraments as the black skein, but it's handled outside the realm of game mechanics, so it's only there for plot. But it's still pretty cool, I thought.
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biggerUniverse
Mage
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 326
Location: A small, b/g planet in the unfashionable arm of the galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | After reading that, I realized that what I wrote before sounds a lot like "Use the force, Luke!" Really, that's not what I had in mind. Heh. |
Well, actually I think your idea takes it in a different direction than the 'force'. Where the force only has an ebb/flow property based on proximity and the amount of organic matter around, I think what you're saying is more like magic is an intelligent AI with an agenda- a goal or set of goals. I think that can be a very interesting story element if executed correctly.
Here's my spin: magic is a sword with no handle. To use it is to afflict the user as well as the victim.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. What I meant by living an organic was not like the Force in star wars, but more like something with an intelligance. LIke an AI like you mentioned. Where the magic doesn't just exist, but has a mind of it's own, and can become angry, or jealous or enraged. Which could effect gameplay.
The sword with no handle line reminds me of BOF: Draqon Qaurter. A good game, but whenever you transformed into a Dragon you lost some of your soul to the Dragon. If you used it all up, you would die.
It seems like a very common theory in Japanese pop-culture. The demon trapped within, that gives you ultimate power but will ultimately kill you.
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| biggerUniverse wrote: | | Well, actually I think your idea takes it in a different direction than the 'force'. |
Right. What you and Mandrake mentioned is more along the lines of what I was thinking.
In fact, I'm going to try to tinker with this idea. My current thinking is to implement magic as a sort of vector field in the environment. Each vector is basically a particle in a continuum of magic that has its own desires, emotion, and potential. Usually, these particles are inert, but charged with a particular vector of desire, emotion, and potential. But when they get activated, they pulse outwards with their emotion, with a magnitude of their potential. When adjacent particles receive this pulse, their desires determine how to react to that pulse, usually changing their state or passing on the pulse. In effect, you'll have an almost liquid flow of shifting emotions that spread out in waves.
Under this scenario, the player would perform magic by carrying around their own particles and doing some game-world-specific thing to set them pulsing. Or just set ambient particles pulsing.
Once you have a setup like this, you just define the emotions and desires of particles, and how they affect the game world's environment. For instance, if the particle is somewhat "enraged" and it gets struck with more "rage" emotion, it gets more "enraged". If it exceeds some baseline level, it actually causes the air to burst into flames, doing damage proportional to its current potential to anything in range, and then drops the potential back to zero. Even if this were the only mechanic in play, you already have some interesting behavior:
* A "normal" pulse would cascade outward for a ways, building momentum as nearby particles contribute to it. Somewhere along the line, the pulse would activate into fire, causing a blast of fire some distance away. (Your typical fireball sort of effect.)
* A low-potential pulse would increase the distance and spread out the surface area, but the damage would be less.
* A high-potential pulse would start the fire a lot closer to the caster, but it would be more focused and do more damage.
* If the pulse potential is too high, though, it ignites the air directly around the caster, essentially making the spell backfire. The caster is literally consumed by rage.
* A very low-potential pulse would cascade outward for a ways, probably not setting off any fire, but making the environment more volatile. A simmering aura of rage settles in the area. If someone else enters that area and sparks off some rage, they'll burn themselves to a crisp.
Pretty interesting emergent behavior from a single rule. Once you start adding more rules, the interactions could get much more complex. Some particles might be mischievous, sending pulses back from whence they came. Some might be hateful, increasing the potential of negative emotions that pass through them. Some particles might be pacifists and will change pulses to an emotion that is more in line with healing and helping, or send out waves of negative potential to act as a diffusing effect. You could even have the magic go insane, causing it to send pulses in a random direction with a random emotion - wild magic.
Now consider this: plot elements can send out pulses or change the emotions of masses of particles, too. The hero watches in horror when the villain murders his one true love. You give the player a choice of what to do. If he screams "Nooo!" then you charge the particles in the area with sorrow. But if he screams "I'll kill you!" then the environment becomes charged with rage.
With this sort of thing in play, you have magic acting as a real character in the game, and also as an interesting setting dynamic. By changing the character of the ambient magic in each scene, you provide different and surprising responses to magic. For example, a graveyard might have a different ambient charge than an undersea grotto or a forest glen.
And to top it all off, wouldn't it be cool if the particles that have enough potential actually glow with a color appropriate to their emotion? You could actually see an silvery blue aura of sorrow in the graveyard over the grave that is spilling sorrow-charged particles into the air...
Anyway, some ideas.
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Xegnma
Monkey-Butler
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 53
Location: Trapped in Middle Earth
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa..lots of good discussion going on here...
I really like your ideas Nephilim...in fact I have a few concepts concerning magic that work along similar lines...I abandoned most of them though when I started to think about open-ended play and lack of predictability. Still it would be kinda interesting. Magic based on emotion sounds like a novel idea and the whole "sentient" magic thing is great. But how would that translate into User interface elements? Conceptually these ideas are great but my meager mind can't seem to visuallize an effective interaction scheme for the user...same problem I had with my ideas when I tried to go from concept to implementation... Any takers on this...
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PhyrFox
Tenshi's Bitch (Peach says "Suck it!")
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: New York, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:55 am Post subject: Magic as an emotion? |
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This is, perhaps, the most interesting discussion I've heard about how to implement magic. And it makes sense.
I could imagine that such a system could be set up rather simply, actually. If I were to implement this "particle" system, as it were, I'd use a grid (maybe a sphere?) of points evenly dispersed across a given area (map). From this point, I would randomly assign initial charges when the player enters the area (weighted by the level designer's initial "feeling" for an area). As used before, there might be sorrow in a graveyard, or lots of rage in the place of a recent battle... etc.
So, these particles, once charged randomly, would quickly equalize themselves (by affecting nearby particles) until there is an equilibrium. The interaction rules should be set such that individual particles might hold a different "balanced" charge, effectively leaving emotional hotspots in the area (places where magic would be most effective). Once this happens, magic is hanging in the balance, waiting to be used.
When a player (or enemy, etc) emits a powerful emotion into the air, the effect would cause the nearest particle to be hit by this emotion. When that hit occurs, that particle would be affected to an overload point, and a chain reaction to nearby particles would occur. If it was a weaker emotion, it might only set of that one particle, or maybe two or three nearby particles. A powerful emotion might affect the entire grid.
I'm seeing possible algorithms for this, but it all comes down to balance. I'd have to program a sample map, set up the particle rules, and see how one might get this to work. Note that actual "magic users" are best able to project emotion in a "directed" attack of magic, thus causing more favorable reactions on the grid. Also, they'd probably see a "haze" over the nearby area of the various emotions in place, to take advantage of the emotions ready to explode if upset.
This would require strategy for the player, as well. Fire ("rage") spells would work best offensively in a place that is already "rage" charged. Opposingly, putting "sorrow" into the nearby area would hamper "rage" spells used against the party, because the area would become under-saturated with hate, and eventually possibly have enough potential to use "sorrow" magic in that area.
Just some ideas, but I like the possible implications. It's elegant, but potentially easy to use. As usual, any directed questions towards me regarding ideas are always welcome.
~= PhyrFox =~
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biggerUniverse
Mage
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 326
Location: A small, b/g planet in the unfashionable arm of the galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad you brought this to the top again, PhyrFox.
It occurred to me that this idea could be used more generally.
In our games, we approximate "Fate", if you will, with a random number generator or a d20 system. Instead perhaps the game logic for attacking, getting items, etc., should be AI logic. Create a Fate AI with motivations, simple goals, and a simple memory. It could be influenced by the weather, or the state of the world, or how many monsters or innocents you kill. I think we can all break out of the rut of the gaming world where Fate is a random thing, to using AI to make Fate a "living" thing. By giving it the right goals, it becomes part of the story.
Part of the key to the immersion puzzle may be that we ignore the parts of our games that are mechanical instead of organic. It seems simple, but I think it is something we are overlooking.
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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Black cat from left!
Friday the 13th!
Tar your doorposts so that evil ghosts get stuck if the try to enter your house.
Bury a broken mirror beneth your opponents door.
Make a puppet of your enemy and put needles in it. More effektive if you have some hair of your enemy put into the puppet.
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biggerUniverse
Mage
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 326
Location: A small, b/g planet in the unfashionable arm of the galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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...I'm failing to see the pertinence...
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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Methods and events that influence fate :)
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