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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
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 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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rpgamer.com's forums are the same (flame wars over that very thing).
Hey- how did you know I was fat?
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Locrian
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 105
Location: VA USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Mandrake: Given your stance on battle system requirements for RPGs, what makes Secret of Mana more of an RPG than Zelda?
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Joakim
Tenshi's Bitch (Peach says "Suck it!")
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Janus: "Well I think" and "In my opinion" is hardly claiming to be an expert, is it? :) My first post was a suggestion on how to decrease the underlevelling/overlevelling problem and my second posts was my opinion on battle engines. I am definatly not an expert on RPGs, I've never finished one. I've worked on serveral and am working on one right now, but that doesn't give me any more (or less) right to state my opinion. I'm sorry if I somehow claimed to be an expert, I'm most definatly not.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't played any thing post snes-zelda (except Minnish Cap, which I would classify as an RPG, actually), but it's a pretty basic way of looking at it. First, I look at past RPG games (and Zelda 1 was never classified as an RPG by Nintendo- only as an action adventure game) and pull out the features that a majority of them share (notice: a majority. I'm picking common features amongst a large selection of RPG games):
1. Character skill versus Player Skill:
Player skill (ie reflexes) are not important. Character skill is. A character played by the player can be faster, smarter and better. A classical Arcade game the player's skill is predominate.
2. A way for the character's skill to advance. (commonly- levelling up, more recently, gaining skills)
3. Purchasing of items, weapons and armor.
4. NPC interaction for plot revelation/quest revealation etc
5. exploring a large, continous world were you can return to areas you have passed (unlike Arcade games which are segmented into a specific levels you cannot return to)
6. Strategic, turn based combat.
Zelda only has 3 of this requirements. Secret of Mana has all of them except for the last one. I guess if you were going by Fuzzy Logic, SOM would have more degrees of RPG-ness, while Zelda has less degress of RPG-ness.
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Locrian
Wandering Minstrel
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Yeah. I agree with all points. Except #6 of course. RPGs are all about role-play/character development/world exploration, so what type of battle system doesn't have an impact. At least when it comes to qualifying as an RPG. When it comes to how much I'll enjoy the game, thats another matter. But saying an RPG has to be turn based is like if you said RPGs have to be 2D back in the day when the majority were 2D. Or is the majority still 2D? Or they have to be medieval fantasy, since the majority are. Or the main character has to be male. I think its correct to look at similar traits in the majority of RPGs if you want to try to define what an RPG is. But just because it appears in the majority doesn't mean its key.
I know I'm talking to a brick here wall here. hehe. Anyway. I thought maybe you only considered SoM as more RPGish than Zelda due to the expanded features on the battle system. Both are real time, but SoM had 3 chars to juggle, aggression settings, could equip each character different. I liked to give the other two party members long ranged weapons to kill/weaken things I can't reach with my sword for example. Combat was a little more "strategic" i guess. But again, I wouldn't think this as more RPGish. Tis just a battle system.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:09 am Post subject: |
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I didn't say they were key- I just meant that they were common Gameplay traits (not visual traits, or story telling traits, or etc etc). If we were to include story telling traits, fantasy would not be a main point anymore, since scifi is much more common now.
Anyway, it's not just combat. Character Growth and Character skills over Player growth and player skills is the key *definition* of an rpg to me. Otherwise, anything could be lumped as an RPG.
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: | | Zelda only has 3 of this requirements. Secret of Mana has all of them except for the last one. |
Not the way I count them.
| Quote: | 1. Character skill versus Player Skill:
Player skill (ie reflexes) are not important. Character skill is. A character played by the player can be faster, smarter and better. |
Player reflexes were about equally important in SOM and Zelda.
| Quote: | | 2. A way for the character's skill to advance. (commonly- levelling up, more recently, gaining skills) |
Zelda had this. (Find the heart containers, gain the ability to take more damage.)
| Quote: | | 3. Purchasing of items, weapons and armor. |
Zelda had this.
| Quote: | | 4. NPC interaction for plot revelation/quest revealation etc |
The Zelda series had this, although it was pretty limited in the original NES Zelda.
| Quote: | | 5. exploring a large, continous world were you can return to areas you have passed (unlike Arcade games which are segmented into a specific levels you cannot return to) |
Zelda had this.
| Quote: | | 6. Strategic, turn based combat. |
Zelda does not have this.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Player reflexes were about equally important in SOM and Zelda.
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Not really- in Zelda your character's attributes did not have any direct effect in combat, only the players' skill, and the power of his weapon.
In all of the Mana games, dammage is varaible based on the level and the skills of the characters. The same with Health. The character improves through practicing his skills (ie: levelling up by doing the same action).
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2. A way for the character's skill to advance. (commonly- levelling up, more recently, gaining skills)
Zelda had this. (Find the heart containers, gain the ability to take more damage.)
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Not even close to being the same. The player finding heart containers is about the same as Mario finding a power plant- it's an item that increases something. This is not a direct representation of the character's skills getting better by practice.
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: |
Not really- in Zelda your character's attributes did not have any direct effect in combat, only the players' skill, and the power of his weapon. |
And your heart containers.
| Quote: | | Not even close to being the same. The player finding heart containers is about the same as Mario finding a power plant- it's an item that increases something. This is not a direct representation of the character's skills getting better by practice. |
In a typical RPG, leveling up is more about the game designer rewarding the player for playing along than about getting better with practice. Example: games where you can use one skill to get skill points and spend them on another skill. Example: certain monsters in Chrone Trigger which give obscene amounts of ability points if you kill them before they run away. Example: games giving experience point rewards for completing quests. I could argue that Zelda more closely models getting better with practice than typical RPGs, since you always get a heart container after a particularily tough fight (i.e. a boss fight). The only difference is that heart containers exist as objects in the game world.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: |
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And your heart containers.
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That's not a skill. That's your life. I can insert quarters into Glaxian to raise the number of ships I have- OH! It must be an RPG!
Health is not a skill, it is an attribute.
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In a typical RPG, leveling up is more about the game designer rewarding the player for playing along than about getting better with practice.
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Not really. The basis of RPG's (table top RPG's) had these things- stats and skills- to represent the type of character you are playing. Their strengths and weaknesses. Like in real life the character can grow- it has nothing to do with rewards or punishments, but about creating a way of getting into a character that evolves with time.
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Example: games where you can use one skill to get skill points and spend them on another skill. Example: certain monsters in Chrone Trigger which give obscene amounts of ability points if you kill them before they run away. Example: games giving experience point rewards for completing quests.
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These are people using skill points and exp as a reward. But what about the countless games that are not like that? What about Ultima, Temple of Elemental Evil, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Shadowrun, etc etc etc
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I could argue that Zelda more closely models getting better with practice than typical RPGs, since you always get a heart container after a particularily tough fight (i.e. a boss fight). The only difference is that heart containers exist as objects in the game world.
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And that is a VERY big difference. From both a player and a game designers point of view- it's an object that has a magical quality of making you live longer. Does that make the enemies in area X easier to kill? Does that mean my fishing skill gets better, or my character gets more magic?
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mandrake wrote: | | Health is not a skill, it is an attribute. |
When discussing gameplay mechanisms, the distinction is arbitrary. I don't think early rpgs had a concept of skill, as distinct from attribute, anyway.
| Quote: | | These are people using skill points and exp as a reward. But what about the countless games that are not like that? |
'nother example: getting experience for killing a monster, but not for fighting some and then running.
| Quote: | | What about Ultima, Temple of Elemental Evil, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Shadowrun, etc etc etc |
Icewind Dale used the D&D system, which treats experience points as a reward allows you to gain skills in one area for experience gained in another. (The Dungeon Master's Guide is explicit about this, and encourages the dungeon master to give experience rewards for "good roleplaying".) In Ultima 6, you gain levels by praying at shrines (after killing monsters for experience), and the attributes you gain depend on the shrine at which you pray. I haven't played the other games in your list. In System Shock 2, skill points are contained in physical objects called upgrade modules that you find during your adventure. In Final Fantasy 10, your skill tree is appearently a physical object (the grid) which can be manipulated with physical objects (the spheres) that you find during your adventure. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually played Final Fantasy 10.)
The overall effect of all these systems is that your character grows in power during the game. The heart containers and item upgrades in Legend of Zelda have the same effect. None of these system are realistic simulations of the character gaining skills through practice.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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When discussing gameplay mechanisms, the distinction is arbitrary. I don't think early rpgs had a concept of skill, as distinct from attribute, anyway.
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Between the two? I'm not sure if the distinction is really arbitrary. But then again, I played tabletop RPG's for quite a long time, so semantics as rule-concepts make sense to me. If you are talking about only gameplay balance and crunching numbers, then yes, they are the same. All video games are the same- it's a game of numbers, and rewards and punishments based on numbers. But, if you are looking at gameplay mechinics trying to express concepts- communicating to the player- then you have to view them seperately.
Gameplay mechinics in a video game (any video game) usually consists of icons representing concepts the game designer wishes to express to the gameplayer. Saying all icons are the same is to ignore the player.
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'nother example: getting experience for killing a monster, but not for fighting some and then running.
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Never said it was a perfect example, but as I said above, icons represent game concepts. In an RPG the game concept is that your character gets better in time through practice.
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Icewind Dale used the D&D system, which treats experience points as a reward allows you to gain skills in one area for experience gained in another. (The Dungeon Master's Guide is explicit about this, and encourages the dungeon master to give experience rewards for "good roleplaying".)
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Because of the necassity of how gameplay works in tabletop gaming, you can't just give people points *every* time they do something and then make them put it in the relative attribute/skill/feat/etc etc. It would disrupt the gameplay. It's the same reason why tabletop games have turn-based combat- having all the players shout out their action in real time would be confusing and would probably drive and good DM mad. It also says in the rule book that you should wait for the end of a gameplay session to award experience- not when the player gets them. The DM doesn't have to explain the exp either.
So, in other words, the original tabletop model isn't exactly used in Icewind Dale, etc (Temple of Elemental Evil, et al other D&D based games), it's modified from the start. You get xp in combat, rather than at the end of the game session, you get it for specific actions, not for DM's discretion.
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In Ultima 6, you gain levels by praying at shrines (after killing monsters for experience), and the attributes you gain depend on the shrine at which you pray.
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Because you were the avatar, and this specified your spiritual ascension. If spirituality is a skill, then praying at the shrine would be an action that would increase that skill. Ultima Online is completely skill based.
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I haven't played the other games in your list. In System Shock 2, skill points are contained in physical objects called upgrade modules that you find during your adventure.
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I would then consider that not an RPG.
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In Final Fantasy 10, your skill tree is appearently a physical object (the grid) which can be manipulated with physical objects (the spheres) that you find during your adventure. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually played Final Fantasy 10.)
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I have- but you don't actually see these physical objects (spheres) and this doesn't make any actual appearance in the game itself (ie: at the end of combat it says "You gained 10 speheres of blah blah blah!", much like how it used to do xp. Now, since you never find skill spheres in the video game world other than after combat, it's not the same as finding a heal potion). I really, personally, dislike greatly FF10's skill system. It almost got me to stop playing the game.
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The overall effect of all these systems is that your character grows in power during the game.
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Not particularly- it's not specifically growing in power- it's character development. The character evolves over time based on ways to represent people getting better at skills by repeated actions. Are these icons of skill development always accurate? No. I think FF2j(nes) had and accurate skill system, as does Ultima Online. But just because it's not accurate doesn't mean it's not trying to model it after real world personal growth. The icons of communication are still present.
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The heart containers and item upgrades in Legend of Zelda have the same effect. None of these system are realistic simulations of the character gaining skills through practice.
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But the icons (ie: what they represent) are not the same. In Zelda your character doesn't achieve a heart container or a new weapon after practive- they discover them. They find them. This is an exploration based game and it rewards you for exploration by giving you items and weapons. The way the game communicates to the player is different.
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Locrian
Wandering Minstrel
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think I agree with Mandrake on heart container point. Mega Man X has the same style of "leveling up" as Zelda. I definitely do not consider that an RPG element in MMX.
I do enjoy my RPGs with a healthy dose of exploration and exploration reward though. Heart containers are like finding an Enchanted Hauberk of Health +1
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I do enjoy my RPGs with a healthy dose of exploration and exploration reward though. Heart containers are like finding an Enchanted Hauberk of Health +1
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As do I! In fact, I love exploration based games. I think to me, that is what drew me to RPG's in the first place- them being mostly exploration based (well they were- now they are mostly plot based. Sad, if you ask me).
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