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tcaudilllg
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Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: The Grand Theft Auto Mess [quote]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/27/game.lawsuit.ap/index.html

So we know already, all of us here do, certainly, that "dummying out" game data is a common technique for game developers to use when they want to target a game towards an audience who might be offended by it's original content, but don't want to make the effort (for whatever reason) to strip out the data outright. We remember the infamous "porno mag" in Final Fantasy IV, and, too, the "stripper" scene also present in that game.

The sad thing is, we in the United States have long suffered under the burden of these religious righteous ideologues' opinions. Now they have their right to their opinions and we have a majority rules philosophy in this country. (offhand, I don't mean to insinuate that everyone here is under the United States, but certainly a majority are) Still, we as gamers remain hamstrung by the supposed outrage potential of radical mothers and ignorant religious leaders. We never saw Bahamut Lagoon come to these shores (legally, at least) for sake of its embrace of all sorts of behavior we consider "taboo" here in the states, and Terranigma never appeared either, for sake of the parallels between the protagonist and Christ. Were it not for Andrew Vestal, and the wave of outrage he summoned against Square in 1997, we might not have seen people using the bathroom in Final Fantasy VII, or even a date with Barette.

Although I started this post with the intent on framing the need to appeal to the radical emotional fringe of our society as something we as a consumer group should begin doing, rather than simply complaining about their powers over us, the courage of Andrew Vestal reminds me that perhaps greater activism would be a better choice. Perhaps it's time we sent a message at the polls to those leaders who do not share our values, that we don't like what they are doing. Perhaps we should set up a barrier between them and us, and only vote for those who have expressed a sincere desire to leave gaming alone.

Hardcore gamers number 3 million strong is this country. We can be a powerful swing vote if we unite in our common interests to keep politicians out of the game industry.
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Terry
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Joined: 16 Jun 2002
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Location: Dublin, Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:23 am    Post subject: [quote]

As usual, Adam Cadre comes along and says it better than anyone:

http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/11496.html
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Verious
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Joined: 06 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Chaotic Harmony wrote:
As usual, Adam Cadre comes along and says it better than anyone:

http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/11496.html


That's funny.

I think people are overlooking the fact that you have to modify the game in order to access the content.

Sure if I rearrange all the letters in the bible, I'm sure I could make a book that no one would let their child read, but people are missing the point. You cannot access this content without modifying the code.
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Sirocco
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Maybe if the industry concentrated on pushing out unique, enjoyable games, they wouldn't have to resort to blatantly whoring out sex and violence to get a game to sell. I'm getting tired of half-naked women and guns.

.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole


Joined: 28 May 2002
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Location: GNARR!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:

I'm getting tired of half-naked women and guns


Then why do you still watch anime?
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Terry
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Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 798
Location: Dublin, Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
Maybe if the industry concentrated on pushing out unique, enjoyable games, they wouldn't have to resort to blatantly whoring out sex and violence to get a game to sell.


See, the thing that annoys me is that GTA is already a pretty fantastic series of games.

It's perplexing. They could have made GTA completely non violent or very mildly so with a few minor adjustments (e.g. permanent records for murder crimes so you can't do it casually (i.e. you're stuck with police pursuit until you're captured or killed), get rid of kill frenzy missions and assasination missions), and it still would have been one of the greatest game series ever. And it really isn't nessicary for bodies to leak blood as you kick them, it doesn't make the game any more fun... A lot about the game is just... gratutitous.

So I really don't understand why they continue to do this to themselves... They could back down a little, they could stop making incredibly fun games into incredibly fun snuff games, and that way they won't have to answer to anyone.

But then, maybe that's precisely why they do it... maybe they feel they need to fight this cause. It's a shame. I don't think it's a cause worth fighting, and I'd personally prefer it if GTA was less needlessly violent.

On topic though, I don't see why people are getting so upset about this Hot Coffee thing. The game is *supposed* to be an 18s anyway. I don't know how things work in America, but here, if you let a kid buy an adult rated ANYTHING, you don't really have any right to start bitching about it's adult material.
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Last edited by Terry on Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Adam
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Mandrake wrote:
Quote:

I'm getting tired of half-naked women and guns


Then why do you still watch anime?

Anime is half-naked kids with guns.
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Sirocco
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:

Then why do you still watch anime?


Normally you'd be making a fantastic point, but I have two rebuttals.

1. My taste in anime leans toward works like Haibane Renmei, Spirited Away, Grave of Fireflies, Here is Greenwood, Paranoia Agent, etc. Although entries like Dead Leaves and Re: Cutie Honey are still very enjoyable, they bask in an overwhelming sense of style and execution, as opposed to modern games where the sex and violence feel cheap and tacked-on to try to make the game join the "me too" crowd.

2. Building on point #1... I enjoy "chicks and guns" games about as much as I enjoy "chicks and guns" anime: in very measured doses. There are obvious titles that need to be enjoyed, but the other 95% is pure potboiler.

.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole


Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: [quote]

actually, I was just being a smartass.
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject: [quote]

And yet I thought it was a perfectly valid question... and quite frankly, dangerously close to being more than a shot over the bow... so to speak.

.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am    Post subject: [quote]

Chaotic Harmony wrote:
A lot about the game is just... gratutitous.


Which, I think, is the point. Ever since the series went 3D, Rockstar has had to continuously up the ante. You know: to remain cool and stuff.

Quote:
So I really don't understand why they continue to do this to themselves... They could back down a little, they could stop making incredibly fun games into incredibly fun snuff games, and that way they won't have to answer to anyone.


Obviously there exists a market for what they produce, otherwise (1) people would not buy their games, and (2) they would not develop/produce their games.

Quote:
But then, maybe that's precisely why they do it... maybe they feel they need to fight this cause. It's a shame. I don't think it's a cause worth fighting, and I'd personally prefer it if GTA was less needlessly violent.


Frank Miller was --- at least, when he was producing the comics --- adamently against putting ratings on the covers to his Sin City comics. He always used to bitch about it in his column at the end of each issue. Essentially, it amounted, in his eyes, to self-censorship, needless capitualtion to idealogical bigots. He had --- that is --- a cause worth fighting for, and he fought his "battles" --- should you wish to see them that way --- by not submitting to self-censorship. Perhaps, as you suggest, that is Rockstar's point.

Or, they could just be a bunch of horny, moralless, ethicless assholes. Take your pick.

Quote:
On topic though, I don't see why people are getting so upset about this Hot Coffee thing. The game is *supposed* to be an 18s anyway. I don't know how things work in America, but here, if you let a kid buy an adult rated ANYTHING, you don't really have any right to start bitching about it's adult material.


I agree: the games have a rating, and it is the responsibility of the parents who are bitching and moaning to take the inititive prior to purchase to approve the content in question. Penny Arcade, recently was discussing this very shortsidedness of American society.
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Last edited by LeoDraco on Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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biggerUniverse
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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Location: A small, b/g planet in the unfashionable arm of the galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject: [quote]

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=158
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Nephilim
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Joined: 20 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:22 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Quote:
On topic though, I don't see why people are getting so upset about this Hot Coffee thing. The game is *supposed* to be an 18s anyway. I don't know how things work in America, but here, if you let a kid buy an adult rated ANYTHING, you don't really have any right to start bitching about it's adult material.


Well, there's the rub. The game as reviewed was for 17-year-olds (Mature-17 rating), but with extra added porn, it should be for 18-year-olds (Adult rating). That's a whole year of difference!

By hiding the porn, Rockstar polluted and corrupted the impressionable minds of thousands of kids who were between 17 and 18, children of responsible parents who followed the ratings systems and let their kids virtually deal drugs, kill cops, and run over pedestrians, but wisely kept them away from a little 3D bonk-chicka-wow-wow.

Let the congressional investigations begin!
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Sirocco
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: [quote]

I'm copying this verbatim from my Allegro.cc post, where the general concensus is I've nailed the crux of the problem... since people seem all worked up over the wrong issue(s).



I think the real issue is being obscured by all the people on both sides of the media pontificating; what it all boils down to is that according to the original ESRB rating there was no strong sexual content in the game, and as it turns out... there was. How you access it is (apparently) irrelevant -- it's there, and the ESRB deemed it worthy of an "AO" rating.

And that's it. In their eyes, you either set your rules down now, or let every developer put whatever they want in their games under the guise of "inaccessible features" that anyone with a Gameshark can uncover.

That's the issue.


.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster


Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: [quote]

That's one side of the issue, certainly. I recently read a post to the Editorials section of RPGamer that puts it (the issue) in light of the people involved and their motivations, however.

http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2005/q3/080105pb.html

This should have been left to the consumer. Sure, people can dummy stuff out. Who knows what is lurking in the depths of FFVII's code? The Aeris resurrection scene? Possibly.

Besides, most people don't use gamesharks, because they have a history of adversely affecting systems. I remember the GameGenie did "wonders" for my NES, including drastically increased glitches even without it being used. Even though a GameShark isn't gonna affect the integrity of a modern, CD-driven system, the stigma remains. Not every game system owner has a game shark, nor even most of them.

That said, you make a good point, Sirocco. Gameshark sales could go up, and porn could be a common content point in games. I really can't argue with that, and it's a matter of opinion whether that is "acceptable" or not. There is intrigue in the controversy: people eager to examine for themselves the political intrigues and processes that usually don't appear very often, although this debate is mostly about values first and foremost. Culturally, is there that big of a difference between the anti-Harry Potters' attempts to ban the books because they teach sorcery, and the accessibility... no there isn't. This woman made a big deal out of it and gathered attention to it. Otherwise, it would have probably gone by relatively unnoticed. I mean, if you can make Laura's body all tan in Tomb Raider by resetting the colors, does that mean you have made her naked? Only in your mind's eye. All the same, it goes in different directions: there are radical people out there on both sides who want to push the issues completely in one direction or another, and it is by activating them that this woman has produced so much outrage.

Besides, there is a world of difference between using a GameShark to change something, and using a mod that tweaks with the code on all kinds of levels. It's a PC game for crying out loud. Doom has an M rating. It's perfectly possible to replace the graphics of the creatures with naked women....

Question: how explicit is this content, really?
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