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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think this is in the right place. Maybe it should be moved to "off topic"?
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LordGalbalan wrote: | | I don't think this is in the right place. Maybe it should be moved to "off topic"? |
Ok, done.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Not bad, but it's missing several key concepts-
1. Prove to me that Ganon represents our fears from the cold war and why would Japan be concerned, or even hold our some fears?
2. Less talk, more action. The verbage is through the roof, and some of it is just silly to the point of sounding needlessly pretentious. This could be 1/3rd of its current size.
3.What's the point? At first we think its defining the original Ganon as a representation of Cold War Existential angst. Before you can back this claim up you move into tons of needless descriptions that tear down any argument you have. Clarify the point.
4. Did I mention before you need to back up your assertations? look at this->
| Quote: | Through his defeat, Ganon was forced to face his past, and his own
failures as a person. He could no longer run, no longer float above the
puppets below. The puppets had put him down to their level. Now the
chief of the puppets was no longer the princess who bedeviled him, who
hated and feared him, who denied him. Now their chief was someone new,
someone courageous, whom all admired for his strength of heart as much
as for his courage. Now Ganon, too, admired Link. |
That's interesting. But weightless unless you show me proof of this statement.
Meh. Reads like every single thesis by an English undergrad student. Pompus and light on actual meaning.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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I understand your arguments. This essay actually demands a lot of interpretation to understand it. The verbage was designed to draw the reader in. (it draws me in, at least)
I didn't intend to suggest that Ganon represents the fears of the cold war. I intended to suggest instead, that Ganon's popularity was a manifestation of the cold war atmosphere. Ganon, as the essay points out, does not need justification. His character is relevant independent of his environment. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, the Ganon and communism played similar roles in similar social environments.
To understand the essay, it is necessary to assume that I've filled in the gaps in my thinking, and that it is consistent. Then I think it is revealed to be without error. Perhaps if you detatched your belief that I am attempting to meet a social standard, you will see my point better. The only standard I tried to meet was entertaining the reader.
The point of the essay is explained in the first paragraph. The cold war was relevant because it explained the relevance of Ganon to our society in 1986.
I inferred a lot of the emotion Ganon shows when he is defeated by Link in that statement. I inferred also that Ganon was lonely. If Ganon was a real man, then he must have been lonely considering his position. Although I do not cite it in the essay, Ganon expresses his admiration for Link in "The Wind Waker". It was from the "Wind Waker" script that I also found relevant statements by Ganon to support the supposition that he grew up alone and afraid, and desiring Zelda.
I wrote the essay to individuals who have followed the series, as I emphasized in the first sentence. The option is open for those who do not understand the essay to learn the series for themselves.
When Ganon tells Zelda he "let that kid run around", knowing that she would eventually reveal herself, he implied that he regarded them, and everyone else, as his puppets. He let Link do the things he did, and he forced Zelda to stay in hiding. They were completely under his control, from his perspective.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I understand your arguments.
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They are not arguments. It's what's known as constructive criticism.
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The point of the essay is explained in the first paragraph. The cold war was relevant because it explained the relevance of Ganon to our society in 1986.
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No, it doesn't. You can't just arbitrarily assign relevance without backing it up.
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Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, the Ganon and communism played similar roles in similar social environments.
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Again, how and why. Where do you see the resemblance? How? Explain this in your article.
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This essay actually demands a lot of interpretation to understand it
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That means it's poorly written and assumes too much.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I thought a lot about it, and I think I see what you are saying. Although my article is accessible to most people, it is not convincing enough to change the debate. What I don't understand is, how to change debate amongst the higher literary circles, and still remain accessible to people outside those circles? Or is that possible?
At first I thought you were being unfair, but then I realized that my mom, who is an english major, wouldn't be convinced of it herself. Come to think of it... I've never been able to convince anyone of anything.
I'm not sure how to change the article without changing its flow, or disturbing its persuasiveness. Some of it is persuasive, I think. It seems to me that each of the points you raised, Mandrake, warrants their own article, but I may be wrong on that.
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Sirocco
Mage
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me that each of the points you raised, Mandrake, warrants their own article, but I may be wrong on that.
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That pretty much nails it. The essay just makes far too many assumptions to be cohesive.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sirocco wrote: | | Quote: |
It seems to me that each of the points you raised, Mandrake, warrants their own article, but I may be wrong on that.
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That pretty much nails it. The essay just makes far too many assumptions to be cohesive.
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I'm completely lost in how to go about fixing the problem then. If I can't rely on the reader to use their own mental energy to make sense of what I'm saying, then how can I ever get the point across? I could write ages on any one of those topics, and draw up evidence from points that cannot be expressed without themselves needing further exploration. Ultimately one would need to explain the entire universe to defend the point, and even if anyone bothered (or could) read that long, the issue of circularity itself emerges.
I'm beginning to draw the conclusion that debate is impossible to change, unless the world as a whole is ready for the change, because the debate is a reflection of that whole, and not just a part.... So this would mean that if the great debate changing texts of the world were not written at the exact moment when they were, then they would not have had the effect they have. This is actually a theme that I'm beginning to notice more and more in our society. It's not what you say, or how you say it, but exactly when. Right down to the nanosecond. I can't prove it, and there seems nothing I can do about it, but this seems to be the case.
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Mandrake
elementry school minded asshole
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 1341
Location: GNARR!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm completely lost in how to go about fixing the problem then. If I can't rely on the reader to use their own mental energy to make sense of what I'm saying, then how can I ever get the point across? |
Mental energy is perfectly ok. But blind assumptions are not exactly the same thing. You could remove all of the needless description and artistic exposition (essays are not creative writing excersizes, at least not the good ones. They are short concepts explaining a concise, simple idea) and extrapolate more on the actual meat of the article.
It seems to me you don't know what you are actually trying to say, so you cover it up with needless concepts, over complicating things until they spiral out of control.
Step back.
Breathe.
Now, try and sum up the entire point of the article in one sentance. Make it a declaration statement. Like, "Ganon represents our fears from the cold war." Next, list the ways Ganon represents these fears, shortly and concisely as possible. Next, expound upon these ideas by forming them into paragraphs.
Each paragraph containing a declaration statement followed by sentances that explain and provide reason/purpose/proof for this declaration statement.
So, see....you don't need to explain the universe. Just your concepts. And don't give me that bullshit of where to start and end your explanations. Look at the game itself. Pull proof from the game. Don't just imagine how Ganon must feel after Link defeats him. If you are trying to prove a point, making shit up dilutes the idea rather than strengthens it.
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DrunkenCoder
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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I stopped reading after a few paragraphs with one gigantic *doh*.
Comparing a Japanese video game to western history and the Cold War doesn't that just seem a little far fetched? If you want to analyze and rationalize Ganon wouldn't looking at the culture that actually spawned him be a much better bet?
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Ren
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 130
Location: turn around...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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I was going to make that point myself, but why bother? The story of good VS evil, david vs goliath, etc. are archetypes that have been around since forever, and here they are in their least complex form: the original Zelda's. There are basically no elaborations on the story from which you can begin to build a point. Anyhow, I skipped to your concluding paragraph and it's terrible. Enough fluff, get to the point if you have one.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| DrunkenCoder wrote: | I stopped reading after a few paragraphs with one gigantic *doh*.
Comparing a Japanese video game to western history and the Cold War doesn't that just seem a little far fetched? If you want to analyze and rationalize Ganon wouldn't looking at the culture that actually spawned him be a much better bet? |
I was actually trying to look at Ganon in terms of who he fundamentally "is". By "is", I mean what his personality is in strictly functional terms. It's absolute root.
Although not the point of the essay, it's intention as I wrote it was to argue against urges to punish tyrants for what they have done. Take Saddam Hussein, for example. People all over the world, and especially in Iraq, are clamoring for his death. By hanging. Was it Saddam who was responsible for what happened in Iraq? Not exclusively. Iraqi society was also to blame, as was the West, and Iran, and all of the other world powers that had a stake in it. Essentially, every person who could have helped Saddam when he was a child, and didn't, was to blame. Saddam was not in himself purely evil, but rather the figurehead of evil. His rise was an expression of our world's darker side. Without that side, he couldn't have become what he did.
The same goes for Ganon. Ganon is a manifestation of the world's darker side. That side exists because we all have collective doubt over death. Ganon himself was not entirely to blame for what he did. Zelda did nothing to help the Gerudo, nor did her family. That Ganon as the king of the Gerudo would seek Hyrule was a natural evolution of his doubt and his position as the Gerudo's king. In this vein, one could even see the plight of Saddam, and his actions to overthrow the Iraqi monarchy, as corresponding to Ganon trying to overthrow Hyrule. The dispossessed poor rising against the affluent. The US could take the role of Link, trying to defeat Ganon on behalf of Princess Zelda, who is the Iraqi middle class. Although the analogy seems to hold in that case, too, it also seems to hold, as Chaotic Harmony put it, when comparing Ganon to the environment of Japan, and its histroy. Beyond that point, it holds for every other tyrannical antagonist, of which Ganon is not necessarily the forerunner, but is certainly similar to them.
The only way to avoid an endless string of comparisons and analogies is to get right to the heart of the issue. Not what Ganon represents, but what anything that Ganon could represent would itself represent? The issue is circular, because a representation is just a form of an abstract idea. That abstract idea is what I set out to uncover when I began writing the essay, and it turned out to be "doubt". Of course, the primary reason for doubt is fear of death, which everyone has in common. From that fear of death, and the statements by Ganon saying that he himself feared death, I was able to trace the issue back from the abstraction of doubt into its various forms, one of which was Ganon. The analogy between Ganon and power, and Ganon and communism, and the conflict between wisdom and power as a reflection of the Cold War, was a phase of the search for the abstract idea. Did I establish that The Legend of Zelda was a reflection of the Cold War? No, I didn't, I don't think.
I'll have to reread it. It made so many points... and is just so complex... one thing leads to another thing leads to another. It seems that mixing apples and oranges, form and abstraction, is complex no matter what.
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RuneLancer
Mage
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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So...
Basically...
The struggle between a character that symbolises the "bad guy" and one that symbolises the "good guy" is akined to a war.
Well, I, for one, can see and understand the huge generalisation at stake here. Let's do Cecil vs. Golbez next! :)
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Ren
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 130
Location: turn around...
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| LordGalbalan wrote: | | Ganon is a manifestation of the world's darker side. |
So he's evil. Bear in mind it took you till your 3rd paragraph to make that point.
| LordGalbalan wrote: | | That side exists because we all have collective doubt over death. |
Proof? Sources? Any type of reasoning at all? You can't just say things and expect them to be true, especially generalizations as large as that.
| LordGalbalan wrote: | | Ganon himself was not entirely to blame for what he did. Zelda did nothing to help the Gerudo, nor did her family. That Ganon as the king of the Gerudo would seek Hyrule was a natural evolution of his doubt and his position as the Gerudo's king. |
And to top things off you've mixed up Ganon with Ganondorf, who was invented for Ocarina of Time long after the end of the cold war. This would be a case of checking your sources.
| LordGalbalan wrote: | | The only way to avoid an endless string of comparisons and analogies is to get right to the heart of the issue. Not what Ganon represents, but what anything that Ganon could represent would itself represent? |
Pure BS. You don't have a point, so you cover up for what your essay lacks with this stupid line, basically telling us that 'on some level, everything is right'. Stop trying to be a clever dick, it isn't working. Also, you're too long winded. Even that reply was too boring for me to finish reading.
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