[Mandrake]

[Mark_Y]

Yeah, whatever Tenshi's flaws on other points, I don't think you can claim that he draws his women as sexy pinups in scanty clothing.

That said, my recollection from a debate way back in the day is that Tenshi doesn't find skinny, busty, scantily-clad blondes attractive anyway, and in fact prefers thicker, smaller chested, sensibly attired green-heads. So I guess maybe he's hypocritical in that he draws his female characters after his own preferences, just as DOA (or whatever) artists do. Shrug. Seems kind of trivial to argue about, though.

[Edit:

I should clarify -- it is hypocritical to the extent that Tenshi's criticism is that game art panders to what people find attractive. It is not hypocritical to the extent that Tenshi's criticism is that game art endorses the skinny, busty, scantily-clad blonde notion of beauty, or the gender-differentiation of chainmail bikinis vs. platemail. That's why I think it's a fairly trivial kind of hypocrisy.]

[Tenshi]

[RuneLancer]

[Mark_Y]

Fair enough then. But I think there is still something to my point, even though I don't think it makes you offensively hypocritical.

That "something" would be that I think it's fair to say that your fantasy creation reflects your preferred social norms and conventions. Women and men dressing identically has almost never been true in any society that has any kind of sophisticated dress (I'm not even sure it was true for neolithic tribes) and there has never been a historical society in which women had equal combat roles to men (there have been some warrior women and some mythological warrior women tribes, like the Amazons [who probably just evolved from the relatively-less-hairy Scythians]). Your fantasy world no doubt has its villains and its flaws, but it more or less reflects a utopian concept as well.

Fiction often is didactic and my sense is that one of the messages you want to convey with Unmei Densetsu (or whatever it's called these days) is that we should favor a sort of post-modern, post-gender leftist political position (no doubt with many crazy anime tropes like sloppy Christian imagery and organizations with acronym names and medieval "special forces"). There's nothing wrong with that, though I confess it's not my utopia and not the message I would (or do) try to convey in my fiction.

Most video games also convey a utopian fantasy, one in which women are sexy and sexual but nevertheless bafflingly strong and resilient. I suppose there's a message there, too -- men should be able to have their pin-ups and their tom-boys all at once (Jenny McCarthy aggressively marketed herself this way during the 90's, Angelina Jolie, Scarlett Johanson, and others are doing the same now) -- although, again, it's not the message I would present.

Now, if your beef is that their message is WRONG as a matter of ethics (i.e., that conception of women and society is inferior to your conception for reasons A, B, C), then you should make clear that that's your beef. Sometimes, though, I think you couch your criticism in terms of "realism," e.g., that it's "unrealistic" that women with DD breasts and 18" waists (or whatever Lara Croft boasted) can do sommersaults in the snow wearing shot shorts and a crop-top. Sure it is. But it's no less realistic than the notion than an enlightened matriarchy of high-tech angels or a modern society where men and women warriors all wear revealing shorts and go around punching giant hornets. Neither of those reflect how women have been or how women are, and neither depicts how women ever will be (although I'll tell you, my wife and I have attacked very large hornets barehanded while wearing shorts).

Maybe it makes a difference that Lara Croft is physically impossible while Rei is merely sociologically entirely unlikely, but I've never believed that technobabble + unrealistic social conventions is any better than a real-world setting with impossible physics and no excuses.

Shrug.

Your art has gotten better, btw.

[Tenshi]

[Mark_Y]

[Tenshi]

- While I see what you're saying, I don't believe that it holds true to this black and white view that you seem to hold over the entire subject. The extremes you're referring to, "girly" and "muscular" are there, I admit, and that is why I really don't go for American animation such as the Comic book super heroes, although admitably, with the exception of the cartoons, I see people like the muscular super hero males all the time:



- This is what happens to women when they get stronger.

http://www.bodybuilder-photos.com/galleries/2003/2003-12_NABBA-Int-Inc_Universe_Cuxhaven/images/bodybuilder-female_IMG_3120.jpg
- Unattractive, I'll be honest, it certainly doesn't turn on any lights anywhere. But as most women say, neither does the massive body-builder stereotype for men. Therefore quite logically, the male bodybuilder stereotype can't be considered sex 'type' marketing. However... "Female wrestler" versus Female fighter.

- The "girly" male comes in two 'sizes': the "gay" and the "effeminate." The "gay" girly men are stereotyped as vain exhibitionists such as in Final Fantasy 9 and Guilty Gear (I believe, there was some game where there was a guy that was like "spin spin spin") and are always casted to be despised (correct me if I'm wrong).

- The Effeminate male -- or metrosexual -- is pretty true-to-life. But yet have I seen an effeminate male whose build was so frail that his female counterpart(s) would be visibly stronger. In general the effeminate male is svelte. Lean muscle is acceptable.

- So where does that lead ... to the unusually large weapons. Do I have a problem with it? Something goes off in my head, yes, but I don't say anything as long as guys and girls of equal builds can do the same things. E.g. Tifa Lockheart can lift up giant 10-story monsters, twirl them around and leap 20 stories in the air and toss them around like rag dolls. Problem? No. Because Cloud, who isn't much stronger in physical appearance, swings a huge broadsword around like paper.

- As for armor. So.. are men just plain stupid and inept? Why don't they take a lesson from their female companions and remove their armor? So, either men are completely retarded and inept at everything in games, or ... something's going on. Check the weather because obviously she does just as well without the extra baggage. Does it not belabor the point that if the male body is stronger than the female body, then if there is only enough armor to be distributed to one gender, someone got the order mixed up?

- But I've probably gone off on a tangent. Anywho, I generally dismiss things as long as it occurs on both sides of the fence. If a game has a bunch of scantily clad pretty-boys in there with a bunch of scantily clad busty skinny girls, and one of each were on the cover, I'd not give it a second thought. If you're going to treat one gender like meat, treat the other like meat, too, or treat them both like a meal.
_________________
- Jaeda

[Mark_Y]

[Tenshi]

[Mark_Y]

As I think this discussion has sort of run its course -- we're in tedious agreement and are being depressingly collegial -- I'll just have one last point, which is that I think if you look at Tekken 5, for example, I don't think the female body-types are less realistic than the male body-types:

http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/681/681191/img_2608411.html
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/681/681191/img_2575274.html
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/681/681191/img_2575289.html

Same with Soul Calibur III
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/736/736896/img_2974015.html
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/736/736896/img_2966979.html
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/736/736896/img_2924978.html [wow -- I think she's reached the grotesque Howard Stern level]
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/736/736896/img_2827636.html
http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/736/736896/img_2824245.html

Ehh. Hard to get good screenshots of either. SC3 may on balance be more ridiculous with regard to women, but I would say that guy's biceps are just as absurd as that girl's breasts.

[EDIT:

Just Google the Chippendale dancers, right?

And to be fair, surely women are more exhibitionist than men? The number of drunken men who drop their pants at parties is much, much less than the number of men who flash their breasts. Now, social pressure is a part of that, but I think this is a case of life imitating art imitating life (see, e.g., Girls Gone Wild).

[Rainer Deyke]

[Mark_Y]

[Rainer Deyke]

No, I really do think breasts are far less sexualized than genitals, even in the US. How many of those women who flash their breasts would be equally comfortable showing off their vagina?

[LeoDraco]

While I have no desire to reignite the flamewar, in any fashion, nor to establish myself any more into the role of "troll", I do feel I reserve the right to answer denigrations committed against me. So! Feel free to answer this, should you wish.