RPGDX > Forums > Design and programming > The Obligatory Language Poll

LeoDraco · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject:

While it is not, necessarily, esoteric, I have played around with ML, which is one of the most fabulous functional languages I have come in contact with. I'm pretty sure there is an OO variant of it. (Ocaml?)

Also, while I have not used it, I have graded a project written in it: Scala; it's a rather funky language, all things considered, as it (seemlessly?) meshes together two disparate paradigms.

Now! As for a totally non-functional, "what the fuck?" language, I present: Shakespeare! (Well, I haven't really used it, but still: the play as a programming language? Awesome.)
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Bjorn · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject:

Yeah C++ would be my primary programming language too, even though I've done a lot of Java too (Tiled mostly) and the single player games I've released here consist of at least as many lines in Lua as in C++. Lua remains my embedded programming language of choice.

Well and for the web still PHP, though I have an itch to look into Ruby on Rails.

tcaudilllg · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:36 am Post subject:

tcaudilllg · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:21 am Post subject:

RuneLancer · Mage Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 441

tcaudilllg · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:54 am Post subject:

Yeah but COBOL is one of the dominant business languages in use today by the FORTUNE 500, and others.

RuneLancer · Mage Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 441

Some of the more interesting languages on this Cat's Eye Technologies site were visual languages. "noit o' mnain" comes to mind: you basically draw a field in ASCII with various gates and objects. Another language, RUBE, is an awesome but horribly convoluted set of objects (represented by single characters) that interact on a field using logical rules.

Guess what? I have a link to the site.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021205031823/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/

Here's what's interesting.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030207140226/www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/index.html

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Massive COBOL rant I feel a need to get out of the way. Sorry. :) Copy-paste it if you want to read it, shrunken to reduce thread-hijack chances.
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LeoDraco · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:09 am Post subject:

tcaudilllg · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject:

Yeah, really funny. :) I didn't know INTPs had a sense of humor... curious.

biggerUniverse · Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:56 am Post subject:

I agree that COBOL is horrible nowadays. It was never really meant for what it was used for. (Like what LG does with Javascript)

Remember the Y2K bug? yeah, that's right. CCYYMMDD, baby. Why? Because even in it's hayday (40 years ago), no one thought anyone would actually USE it when y2k came around. Thus only YYMMDD. Save a byte, save your life.

I used to work for a financial company (notorious for MF use), and the Senior VP I worked for had actually written our accounting software back in the mid-70s. It still cut our checks up until this year.

It has a storied history (think Grandma COBOL), and a valid application (think scaring children).

"Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao. But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it."

--Geoffrey James "The Tao of Programming"
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RuneLancer · Mage Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 441

I'm hardly surprised that a 70s COBOL program would still be in use. COBOL systems are probably what spawned the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" saying. ;)

Look at it this way: your company's paycheck-management software is written in COBOL. It takes about 80ms per employee (out of 200) to calculate how much they get and to log their check in the company's payment history. Written in C++, it could take, say, 25ms to accomplish this same task.

The following questions count for 15% of this exam. Answers are given between parentheses to alleviate the tension of waiting to know if you scored high, but as we rely on the honor system, please do not ever look at them. Ever. Or else you'll be sent to... the room.

a) How much time is saved per week? (11 seconds)

b) What is the cost of contacting a company and getting them to design and implant such a system in your company's infrastructure? (Maybe... $20k? $30k?)

c) Is it worth it? (No. Not by a long shot.)

Writing your name down properly on this test will award you 85% of the total points the exam is worth. You may pick up your pens... now.
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tcaudilllg · Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject:

The advantage of interpreted systems like COBOL, is that outside contractors can be hired to do the payroll applications. This is what my stepdad does: he adds new features to code that is on queue with what his employer's customers need. This allows them to make changes to their work very easily. Sure they could recompile, but there is simply so little information necessary for a payroll, that the 25ms vs 80ms argument is a nonstarter. Although RL makes a good argument for the intuitive sense of possibilities, this argument must be made by the dominant personality of a company for it to be successful, and non-intuitives who want little more than a repeat tomorrow of what they had today remain very, very numerous. This is Deneb's (the company my stepdad works for) market. Such companies do not lead; they merely adapt. Interpretation is the most reliable form of adaptation, because implementation is instant.

Another thing: COBOL is pretty easy to read, because it is so "english". People who are not mathematically inclined feel more comfortable with an "natural" language system than a mathematical one.

There are other arguments for COBOL, as there are for any system. Although it could well be superseded, there appears to be little motivation for companies to make the change now.