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NyanNyanKoneko
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ninkazu said...
| Quote: | | My stance is that religion is entirely wrong... |
... and a ton of other intollerant, arrogant statements that would most likely offend 80%-90%+ of the world population...
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Ninkazu, if that's true, then what's the basis for your morality?
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Nephilim
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Joined: 20 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | Also, please try to be respectful of other people's religious viewpoints. |
Let me get this straight. Likening liberals to terrorists? That's acceptable behavior. Likening Jesus to a hippie? Not acceptable behavior.
Both seem to be treading on people's deeply held moral and philosophical beliefs, so what exactly is the distinction that makes your behavior acceptable, and LeoDraco's not? Not only was he following your lead, as you're the one who set the tone for this thread, you troll, but LeoDraco's characterization was humorous, insightful, and harmless, whereas yours was crass, spiteful, and socially irresponsible (and simply wrong to boot).
You have to admit that if Jesus was around in the 60's, he totally would have been at Woodstock, covered in mud and handing out daisies. He's all about peace and love and long hair, and would go where the heart of the people were.
So don't get mad at people making that observation just because you have a personal prejudice against hippies - after all, you're the one bringing negative overtones to that characterization, not LeoDraco. It's in really bad taste to admonish us to curb our speech to conform to your delicate sensibilities when you came out of the gate roaring with vitriol against others.
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NyanNyanKoneko
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Likening liberals to terrorists? That's acceptable behavior. |
I... I don't remember saying all liberals were terrorists. Could you pull up the quote you're referring to?
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NyanNyanKoneko
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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I just spent an hour and fifteen minutes writing a well-thought out post and I was copying over some text to finish up the essay, I accidentally pushed the left and right mouse buttons on my laptop when I was trying to click over to this tab to paste what I wanted, closing the tab without a warning, and all my work is gone. I'm dissapointed.
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Nodtveidt
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Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:49 am Post subject: |
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I always enjoy reading the rants of such people. This all seems to be pretty commonplace amongst self-proclaimed right-wingers. That which does not agree with their narrow point of view is immediately "evil" or "bad", and they have this weird obsession with opening up religious cans of worms. They also LOVE to tack labels onto other people as well as wear their own label as if it were some kind of badge of honour or something..."I'M A RIGHT-WINGER!!!!!!" Is that a chicken's right wing? Hrm, would make a good barbeque! :D
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Nephilim
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | Quote: | | Likening liberals to terrorists? That's acceptable behavior. |
I... I don't remember saying all liberals were terrorists. Could you pull up the quote you're referring to? |
I... I don't remember saying that you said "all liberals were terrorists."
What I said was that you "likened" them to terrorists. Read over your first couple of posts, wherein you lump terrorists in with Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, etc. By mentioning them in the same string, you're implying that they're birds of a feather, when that is specifically not the case.
For instance, it would be inappropriate for someone to say "I disagree with the religious beliefs of David Koresh, Jim Jones, Torquemada, and NyanNyanKoneko." That statement doesn't specifically, technically, say anything about your beliefs, but it "likens" you to those other, far more repugnant individuals by asserting to the reader that there is a common thread to the list. By trying to lump terrorists and Cindy Sheehan in the same group, you're implying that there is a common thread between them. Thus, "likening" liberals to terrorists.
This is a common rhetorical tactic. Either you were blissfully unaware of it, in which case, you need to go take some English classes pronto, or you were perfectly aware of the association you were trying to make, in which case you were behaving irresponsibly and rudely. Either way, it's the sort of assertion that a decent person would apologize for and retract.
And now, to get back to the main question which you are apparently trying to dodge by feigning ignorance about your initial assertions: what exactly is the distinction that makes you feel that it is acceptable for you to make crass, inflammatory assertions about people's personal beliefs and philosophies, but somehow feel that others like LeoDraco shouldn't be able to express their own opinions about yours?
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NyanNyanKoneko
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Nephilim, I think you're mistaken. :)
First of all, I didn't even mention the word "terrorist" anywhere in my first post. What I said was...
| Quote: | | This site lists a ton a left-wingers and their agendas from anti-american radicals like Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore, to the islamic extremists on the religious left like Aminah Akbar who said, "Bin Laden is a warrior for Allah, as all Muslims should be." |
Unfortunately, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, nor Aminah Akbar are terrorists (though Akbar doesn't seem to oppose the actions of Bin Laden).
Later I said...
| Quote: | | I'm against helping the terrorists, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, communism, and global warming. |
That's quite a stretch to say that I'm calling everyone on the left terrorists from that statement as well.
In other words, you're using convoluted logic to put words in my mouth. That's a pretty low debating tactic.
I have never likened the left to terrorists. Furthermore, after reading through your post, I seriously doubt know what that word means (likens).
Now, if I consistantly mentioned an islamist terrorist group every time I mentioned anything about the left, you may have have a point that I am associating the terrorism with the left; however, that just isn't the case.
Throughout this entire post, Nephilim, you've put words in my mouth and attributed to me beliefs I may or may not believe in. If you want to discuss the merits of different points of view, that's fine, but the last thing this thread needs is a juvinile level of debate in which we call people names and put words in their mouth.
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LeoDraco
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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NyanNyan: No, he pretty much has the definition of liken down correctly; you know that comma thing? As a punctuation mark, it certainly gets around, but one of its chief uses is to separate items in a list, and, typically, it has the binding effect that Nephilim mentioned.
Also, from views presented by members of your side of the political spectrum [whether that side exists as a seperate entity notwithstanding], as well as from comments you have dropped on these fora in the past, anyone "anti-american" is equitably labelled with the moniker "terrorist", which, by implication, would tend to suggest you would lump Sheehan and Moore --- whom you have called "anti-american" --- in with those terrorists.
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NyanNyanKoneko
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| LeoDraco wrote: | | NyanNyan: No, he pretty much has the definition of liken down correctly; you know that comma thing? As a punctuation mark, it certainly gets around, but one of its chief uses is to separate items in a list, and, typically, it has the binding effect that Nephilim mentioned. |
Right, to liken means to make a comparison, much like a simile. If I were to liken the left to terrorism, I would say something along the lines of, "The left and the terrorists are almost the same, they both hate goulash." Or more directly, "The left are like the terrorists."
What Nephilim was describing was association. If you say something like, "America is against terrorism and Saddam Hussein" again and again, readers or listeners will start to associate terrorism and Saddam as being connected. This is what the president was accused of for making the case for war against Iraq.
EDIT:
Regardless, I already went over my own quotes, and nothing I said could be reasonably construed as a comparison between the left and terrorism. And simply mentioning two words in the same sentence a single time isn't grounds for accusations that I am actively trying to associate the left with terrorism.
/EDIT
| LeoDraco wrote: | | Also, from views presented by members of your side of the political spectrum [whether that side exists as a seperate entity notwithstanding], as well as from comments you have dropped on these fora in the past, anyone "anti-american" is equitably labelled with the moniker "terrorist", |
Please find evidence or quotes of me saying such things. You're putting words in my mouth.
| Quote: | | which, by implication, would tend to suggest you would lump Sheehan and Moore --- whom you have called "anti-american" --- in with those terrorists. |
Actually, anti-american radical was the term used by the website to describe Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan. I just figured it appropriate to use the terms the website was using to describe what was on the website. There were no hidden implications to terrorists on my part. Though, it's a big leap to go from anti-american sentiments to terrorism.
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LeoDraco
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | Please find evidence or quotes of me saying such things. You're putting words in my mouth. |
No, no I am not. While you do not come right out and say, in this post, that "anti-american" equals "terrorist", you do say, "[i]n fact, if you're against fighting terror as enemy combatants of the United States, some may see you as a traitor," which is pretty much the stance of Sheehan and Moore; true, you did not state that was your particular opinion, but your entire post was in defense of a person whom has pretty much made that opinion resoundingly clear.
| Quote: | | Actually, anti-american radical was the term used by the website to describe Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan. I just figured it appropriate to use the terms the website was using to describe what was on the website. There were no hidden implications to terrorists on my part. Though, it's a big leap to go from anti-american sentiments to terrorism. |
You know, when people quote things not their own, or, at the very least, things that they do not typically believe in, they tend to put these odd, floating commas about them. Or, on the interweb fora that support such fancy constructs, utilize the quote tags.
Regardless, as Nephilim pointed out, your post was irresponsible: no where in your post do you point out that the opinions you are expressing are not intrinsically your own, and the wording you utilized to express those opinions was needlessly inflammatory.
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NyanNyanKoneko
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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What opinions was I stating? That the website lists anti-american radicals? That's not an opinion, that's a fact. And that's strange you have the gumpsion to state that what I had to say was needlessly inflamatory (which it wasn't since I was only pointing out the existance of an interesting website), but not say anything about Ninkazu's little rant.
| Quote: | Personally, I think that if Jesus existed and did the shit he did, then he's a cool cat. Other than that, what absolutely everyone did to his message afterward completely fucked the world. Organized religion - well just religion in general, because if it's not organized, then it's just a philosophy - has poisoned the world throughout history. When any two people have clashing beliefs for which both cannot be proven with empirical evidence, then you get radicals that kill, start wars, become president, etc.
My stance is that religion is entirely wrong. Philosophies are good to have, since you can predict your behavior in the future and lay moral constructs for yourself. When you start saying that 2000-year-old dead guys are God and that you must believe in him or you'll burn forever, then you've lost all sense of morality and have just bought into a mythology that demands conformity and blood. |
You just don't like the fact that someone disagrees with what you believe. That's fine; agree to disagree. I'm one of the only people in this thread acting reasonable and non-inflamitory.
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LeoDraco
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| NyanNyanKoneko wrote: | | What opinions was I stating? That the website lists anti-american radicals? That's not an opinion, that's a fact. And that's strange you have the gumpsion to state that what I had to say was needlessly inflamatory (which it wasn't since I was only pointing out the existance of an interesting website), but not say anything about Ninkazu's little rant. |
Your entire first post contains wording that is obviously not left-winged; you later on state that you tend to associate and support a right-winged view point on life. Your post expresses opinions from a right-winged perspective that is not universal. I was not saying you were listing fact --- i.e. what the website presumably says --- but that you were, in discussing the site, passing its opinions off as your own. (This is especially compounded by emphasizing, in your post, what a great site it is.)
| Quote: |
You just don't like the fact that someone disagrees with what you believe. That's fine; agree to disagree. I'm one of the only people in this thread acting reasonable and non-inflamitory. |
Nothing in his post is inflammatory; sure, if one were to believe in absolute, indelible truth, I can certainly see where that might be true, but rational people should not believe in absolutes anyway. The sum of Ninkazu's post? Essentially, it boils down to an interpretation of a clause in the US Constitution that has existed for quite some time: people are free to believe in whatever they wish, up until their beliefs start impinging upon the rights of others to enjoy their beliefs.
True, presenting your right-wing agenda here certainly does not impinge upon the right for me to believe what I will; however, evangelicalism never has a valid place in society, especially when, by association, all other applicable beliefs are shunted to the side as so much hogwash.
And about your accusation in that quote: personally, I feel that people are free to rely upon whatever crutch they decide to rest themselves upon; whether that entail their being deluded by propaganda and FUD is besides the point. What I cannot stomach, however, is zealous, evangelical, unquestioning fanaticism. Certainly, NyanNyan, over the course of this thread, you have exhibited more repugnance at the expressed opinions of others than we have expressed at yours, and, when asked to delineate why it is acceptible for you to make audacious claims, but not the rest of us, you have shifted the focus of conversation elsewhere. Nephilim has twice asked you to explain why only you are allowed to be evangelical about your beliefs, and you have yet to give a definite answer.
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Nephilim
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Heh. I see NNK is going to great lengths to avoid answering my question, by trying to put words in my mouth about what I said he/she said.
But let's take a step back. Maybe NNK is honestly clueless about implication by association. Not everyone is a good communicator, after all. It very well could be that NNK, like a monkey on a keyboard writing "War and Peace," just unintentionally wrote language that to most reasonable people reads like a nudge-nudge-wink-wink association between Cindy Sheehan and terrorism. That's fine. Far be it from me to attribute something to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity. If NNK wants to argue that he/she was ignorant instead of malicious, then, I am willing to grant that in the interests of getting NNK to answer the question he/she is trying so hard to avoid answering.
The question I put to NNK does not rely solely on that terrorist implication NNK made, intentionally or not. Even this thread's title makes it clear that this is an attempt by NNK to make a hostile, disrespectful, and broad statement about many people's personal philosophies and beliefs. If you want a concrete example, NNK, you have claimed that anyone who doesn't believe the same way about global warming is "living in a fantasy world" - to the right OR to the left.
So my question still stands: what is the distinction, NNK, that makes it appropriate for you to make crass, disrespectful assertions about the beliefs and philosophies of others, yet inappropriate for someone like LeoDraco to say something as innocuous as Jesus being like a hippie?
Also, if you truly did not intend to liken liberals with terrorists, then surely you'd be happy to set the record straight by apologizing for that unintentional assertion and retract it, correct?
| NNK wrote: | | Unfortunately, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, nor Aminah Akbar are terrorists (though Akbar doesn't seem to oppose the actions of Bin Laden). |
UNFORTUNATELY they're not terrorists?!?! Yikes.
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NyanNyanKoneko
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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I meant unfortunately in relation to your argument in which you claimed I was calling Michael Moore and Cinday Sheehan terrorists. -_- Example: "You say this, unfortunately this is the truth."
Also, Nephilim, I have much more agency in the discussion of the English language. Let it go.
EDIT: ... EDIT 2: Decided to get rid of the edit, it might have come across as insulting, but it was supposed to be silly. :)
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Last edited by NyanNyanKoneko on Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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biggerUniverse
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Location: A small, b/g planet in the unfashionable arm of the galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Hi. This is the voice of reason. Ya'll took the bait. You should have ignored it, but now you're all snagged. Go back and read the first post and tell me it wasn't a hook, line, and sinker.
It's called non-cooperation. If you don't like it, don't be a part of it.
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