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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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 Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: |
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You sure like to say "non sequitur" a whole lot...you remind me of that guy in Princess Bride who liked to say "inconceivable!" a whole lot. Using eloquent speech doesn't make you smart or experienced. But I see you're still not convinced and seem to enjoy being an ass, so I won't bother wasting my time trying to convince you of the blatantly obvious. You call my points absurd yet you have nothing to back up your attacks. Prattle on.
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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RuneLancer
Mage
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:03 am Post subject: |
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Lol, yet another idealistic opensource liberal rant trying to overtake a harsh yet realist closed-source rant.
*grabs the popcorn* :D
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Endless Saga
An OpenGL RPG in the making. Now with new hosting!
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tunginobi
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I'm an impatient person, which immediately puts my level of patience higher than 90% of the internet-going population. I seriously didn't even bother reading those long posts, and I'm not sure half of the people here did either.
If there's a point to be had, condense it into a few lines so everybody can stomach it.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| tunginobi wrote: | I'm an impatient person, which immediately puts my level of patience higher than 90% of the internet-going population. I seriously didn't even bother reading those long posts, and I'm not sure half of the people here did either.
If there's a point to be had, condense it into a few lines so everybody can stomach it. |
As reading this rest of this response --- as well as reading my last post, do ya fine --- will portray, nodtveidt has spent the bulk of his arguments either attacking my character (e.g. comparing me to an imbecilic literary character) or by making logical assertions to which legitimate counter-examples exist.
(I am answering this complaint first, even though it temporally comes after the rest of this response, to placate the author. tunginobi, if you are still reading by this point, you are free to stop and go about your business; thank you for your time.)
| nodtveidt wrote: | | You sure like to say "non sequitur" a whole lot...you remind me of that guy in Princess Bride who liked to say "inconceivable!" a whole lot. |
Yar. Unlike that particular character (you sure do like to make ad hominem attacks against me; anyone else remember someone referring to me as an "insane trombone player"?), I actually know the meaning of the term/phrase I am using.
| Quote: | | Using eloquent speech doesn't make you smart or experienced. |
D00d! j00 h4v3 4 pr0bl3/\/\ w1th h0w 1 wr173?
Why not try attacking my points, rather than me? At least another person in this thread has asked the same question that I have, which you have yet to give a solid answer for.
Talking plain (OR ASSERTING IN LARGE CAPS THAT YOUR POINT IS NOT SOME RANDOM THEORY) does not make you smart or experienced, either.
(As an aside, I enjoy the way I write, and I am quite flattered that you find it to be eloquent; thank you for providing necessary verification that I am doing something correct.)
| Quote: | | But I see you're still not convinced |
As you have given arguments with no real evidence to the contrary, nor have spent any time contesting my points, I am not surprised this is the case.
| Quote: | | and seem to enjoy being an ass, |
Hey! Something I can honestly not contest. Congratulations on that one.
| Quote: | | so I won't bother wasting my time trying to convince you of the blatantly obvious. |
That's your prerogative; however, if your point of view is so "blatantly obvious," then you should have no trouble whatsoever to come up with evidence to support it and to refute any and all claims that I have made.
| Quote: | | You call my points absurd yet you have nothing to back up your attacks. Prattle on. |
And you do not answer legitimate questions put forth to you. You have not presented any hard and fast evidence to contradict anything I have said. You have, on several occasions, shuffled the focus of whatever debate might be going on away from the topic onto personal attacks on my person (to qualify, not all of these occurrences have been solely within this thread; as other topics of debate had around here are irrelevant to this discussion, I shall comment directly upon them if and only if others want a justification of this point).
Again: how about setting about refutting my points, rather than spend time writing up attacks against me? Please list which of my "attacks" are baseless so that I can gather the necessary research to back them up, or, in the event that I cannot do so, apologize for making them. Note, here, that I am not unwilling to do anything which I have not already asked of you.
To placate you, nodtveidt, I am willing to let this topic drop if you are unwilling to debate about it without getting nasty.
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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Nephilim
Mage
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| tunginobi wrote: | | If there's a point to be had, condense it into a few lines so everybody can stomach it. |
I think this thread is quickly becoming pointless. It's obvious that nodtveidt has a chip on his shoulder regarding open source software. I think he's attributing some of his fully justified anger about the situation of the software industry in general as the sole or primary fault of the open source licenses, and the discussion is degenerating into a rant/defense about open source that isn't really grounded in the merits of the actual licenses and the intent behind them. That's how it reads to me anyway.
I suspect nodtveidt had a genuinely bad experience somewhere along the line, and ran afoul of one of the cases where open source isn't that great for the particular business model they were working under. I understand his pain, but I don't think it's fair to extrapolate that to the assertion that open source "rapes developers".
| nodtveidt wrote: | | I can tell neither of you have actually worked a said small firm before... |
Nodtveidt, I've worked for three small software development shops, ranging from two to ten developers, with budgets and business models ranging from out-of-the-garage shoestring "on spec" development, to three-year-long internet startup runways provided by a mixture of angel and non-angel investors, to a cost-recovery model development shop in a public university setting. In all three cases, we found great uses for both open source and closed source software, and neither license ended up "raping" us.
But if I were to pick which of the two was more dangerous to our business models, I wouldn't hesitate to say the closed source software. As a downstream developer (as we were in each case), if the company whose code we based our business model on had decided to stop licensing the code, had stopped developing/supporting the code, had decided to compete in our market, had gone out of business, or had been purchased by one of our (or their) competitors, we would have been screwed. Open source software drastically reduces those risks (doesn't eliminate them, but certainly reduces them).
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Visit the Sacraments web site to play the game and read articles about its development.
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Nodtveidt
Demon Hunter
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Camuy, PR
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Nephilim wrote: | | I don't think it's fair to extrapolate that to the assertion that open source "rapes developers". |
I didn't say open source rapes developers...I was referring to the GPL specifically. I've made use of many open-source resources over the years, and I've also contributed a bit to both third-party open source projects and quite a few in-house resources as well. But the rest of your post is pretty on-target...it's just easy to mix up a discussion of open source with a discussion of GPL as they tend to go hand in hand.
LeoDraco, I never intended to get into a pissing match with you in the first place. But as for this evidence you are looking for...what constitutes "evidence"? Is it something that you have to experience yourself before you understand and believe it? Do I have to show you some kind of chart? Do I have to give you "the official word" from some corporate monkey? Explain how you want this "solid evidence" presented. From where I stand, the proof is in the pudding...experience is a great teacher, and it's my experience, not a bunch of semantic crap you find on a website somewhere and not the half-truths of some biz bonehead, that is the evidence. It would be very difficult for me to present this evidence to you...not only is it not my place to divulge such information, but you could easily pass it off anyways.
But I can't believe you keep going with the "insane trobone player" thing...jumpin jesus on a fuckin rubber crutch, don't you remember that that was CLEARLY a joke?
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:58 am Post subject: |
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It's pretty clear that linking to GPL software is not an option if you also intend to link to closed source third party libraries, or if you intend to link to open source third-party libraries whose license isn't GPL-compatible, or if you intend to target NDA-protected platforms, or even if you just want to maintain some sort of control over the distribution of your finished product. This arguably makes the GPL more restrictive than most closed-source library licenses, which generally restrict neither the other code which is linked into the final product nor the distribution of the final product.
One interesting aspect of the GPL is that it is incompatible with an indentical clone of itself. Consider a software project that uses both GPL and GPL' code, where the GPL' is essentially identical to the GPL.- I cannot redistribute the project under the GPL, since this violates the terms of the GPL' which state that any project that uses GPL' code must be redistributed under the GPL'.
- I cannot redistribute the project under the GPL', since this violates the terms of the GPL which state that any project that uses GPL code must be redistributed under the GPL.
- I cannot redistribute the product under both licenses combined, since in doing so I would impose additional restrictions beyond those mentioned in the GPL, which is forbidden by the GPL.
- I cannot allow end users to choose between the licenses, since in doing so I would effectively be giving the end users the right to bypass the GPL, which is forbidden by the GPL.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| nodtveidt wrote: | | LeoDraco, I never intended to get into a pissing match with you in the first place. |
Neither did I, and for that, I apologize to both you and everyone else whom may have read this thread. Sometimes, I believe, people just rub each other the wrong way, and end up arguing about things that are entirely irrelevant to the topic discussion.
| Quote: | | But as for this evidence you are looking for...what constitutes "evidence"? Is it something that you have to experience yourself before you understand and believe it? Do I have to show you some kind of chart? Do I have to give you "the official word" from some corporate monkey? Explain how you want this "solid evidence" presented. From where I stand, the proof is in the pudding...experience is a great teacher, and it's my experience, not a bunch of semantic crap you find on a website somewhere and not the half-truths of some biz bonehead, that is the evidence. It would be very difficult for me to present this evidence to you...not only is it not my place to divulge such information, but you could easily pass it off anyways. |
In your last post, you wrote the following:
| Quote: | | You call my points absurd yet you have nothing to back up your attacks. |
Assuming, of course, that by "nothing to back up [my] attacks" you were referring to some form of tangible evidence --- in any of the fashions you describe --- then what I ask for is exactly what you are asking for here: exactly what you want to back up my attacks is what I expect from you. If we can agree, however, that this is a topic best left to the nebulous realm of opinion, which fairly seems to be the case, then, as you suggest, neither of us could possibly come to an accord for what constitutes "valid" evidence.
| Quote: | | But I can't believe you keep going with the "insane trobone player" thing...jumpin jesus on a fuckin rubber crutch, don't you remember that that was CLEARLY a joke? |
I shall freely admit that I imbue some of my responses with sarcasm, which can, at times, be dripping with vitriol. However, and please forgive any examples which contradict this, I have not called you anything derogatory --- even if it was a joke, nor even if it was something as innocuous as an "insane trombone player" (again: out of pure curiousity, what does that mean?); true, my comments can be disparaging, but I do not stoop so low --- as far as my opinion of what I have written in response to things you have written --- as to discredit you as a person by calling you names or by likening you to infamously imbecilic characters; I also have not made bold assertions about your work, nor about your habits, which are based solely upon my experience of the industry --- which, as Nephilim has pointed out, is not uniform for all people whom work therein. Granted, this ego-centric evaluation of myself is extremely biased, and I may certainly be overlooking exceptions to this particular claim; I invite you to point out those exceptions, so that I might consciously note them and resolve myself to not make them towards you or others again. Debate should be rational, and without appeal to logical fallacies when one feels he is in a tight spot in an argument.
All I ask for, here, is for a level of common courtesy; while it certainly is rather cliche, I do believe that the ultimate chestnut, The Golden Rule, must be deligently adhered to, especially when it comes to these types of topics, lest they degenerate to, as you say, a "pissing match".
Rainer Deyke: those are very interesting observations about GPL'd software; certainly, they constitute some food for thought.
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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