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Jon Alma
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Legends - Inventory System First Look [quote]

In the last few days I've been working on the inventory system as the following screenshot shows.



This is a first look and there are a few things missing, but it gives an idea of where this is going and highlights a few points that I'd appreciate feedback on.

First off, as can been seen from the image, there are actually two currencies in the game. This is mainly because the world is split between two warring factions that are not likely to use the same money. It also creates some interesting gameplay possibilities with using the wrong money being a risky business. It will also mean that the player will need to find moneychangers if short of the right type of money.

Also money has a (small) weight - if the player has a lot of money then this will either be stored somewhere or converted into low weight / high value objects (jewels etc) for easy transport of 'currency'. In the game I'm trying to control inflation (having played Dungeon Siege where you start with rewards of 2gp and then fairly quickly get rewards of several hundred gps that you can't be bothered to pick up I want money to be relatively hard to come by).

For each item in the inventory it's value and weight will be shown bu default. For objects that can be grouped the quantity in the inventory will also be shown (as with the coins with the little sack icon). Weapons and armour will show their attack and defensive bonuses, while other objects will probably be shown with their level of repair (the heart icon)

I did think about a paper doll equipping screen, but it was actually easier to display the character model with equipment drag and drop on this model. For the moment this model is drawn without lighting so is a bit flat - something that should be corrected pretty quickly. It will also be possible to rotate the model to get an all round view.

The empty box at the bottom left of the inventory window will soon be showing the overall weight of the inventory and the overall carrying capacity of the player. Instead of a can move / can't move cut off, there will be a slightly more gradual approach where 80% encumbrance will allow normal movement with a drop off in movement speed and increase in fatigue as the 100% encumbrance level gets closer. Again the idea is to encourage the player to travel relatively light (even if it will be possible to carry two sets of armour and several different weapons to compromise realism with convenience).

Three things to add are a scroll bar for the inventory, item filtering (the buttons for this are in place at the top of the window, but they don't work yet) and finally I am going to play with the surrounding box for each item to make then more visible (probably having a similar border to the buttons).

Anyway, what do you think?

Jon.
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Hajo
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Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:16 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Looks good to me :)

Simple, yet appealing. I think it will work very well in a game.

Money having a weight may or may not be a good idea. Also depends if the game offers a bank to deposit money and how rich players can become.

Most silly use of money was definitely the Merchant class in Ragnarok online, who could by a damage bonus for an attack (spend 100 zeny and you get 600% enhanced damage on next hit.)

If money has a weight, rich could try to beat monsters with money-bags :P

Drag-and-drop to equip should work nicely. Taking small items off might be tricky I imagine? A ring on the model may be just too small to successfully grab and drag back to the inventory part of the screen.
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RedSlash
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject: [quote]

Seems like a good idea. I think the weights makes things a bit more realistic. So one can't go running around at light speed wielding some gigantic sword.

I think the paperdoll system for equipment would be nice and kinda neat at the same time.
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Jon Alma
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Hajo wrote:
Looks good to me :)

Simple, yet appealing. I think it will work very well in a game.

Glad you like it - it actually took a long time to get the information for each item in the inventory looking reasonable - at one stage I really got the impression I was looking at a spreadsheet.

Hajo wrote:
Money having a weight may or may not be a good idea. Also depends if the game offers a bank to deposit money and how rich players can become.

This is something to balance out. Money is going to be relatively hard to come by and I'm trying to find ways of controlling inflation ... there won't be easy sources of money and there are going to be numerous money sinks - for instance travelling between islands (and there are lots of islands) involves paying for the trip. As a result money having weight shouldn't be a killer. As for depositing money in a bank this isn't planned at the moment, but there should be safe places to store money (non-transferable bank branches?) and high value / low weight objects that can be purchased and transported instead (in fact I'm planning a 'quest' that involves this sort of thing).

Hajo wrote:
Drag-and-drop to equip should work nicely. Taking small items off might be tricky I imagine? A ring on the model may be just too small to successfully grab and drag back to the inventory part of the screen.

To clarify a bit the drag and drop will be from the inventory to the character model (so pretty easy to handle) at which point the item in the inventory will be marked as being worn. To taking something off will be handled within the inventory by dragging from the inventory and then dropping it back into the inventory (essentially just clearing the 'being worn' indicator). The reason for this is the relative difficulty in picking objects (for me to code and the user to do).

RedSlash wrote:
Seems like a good idea. I think the weights makes things a bit more realistic. So one can't go running around at light speed wielding some gigantic sword.

I hope the slow down will encourage some realistic behaviour - if the player is a thief then he/she shouldn't be going on a buglary wearing a full set of armour, end up stealing every bit of furniture in a house and then expect to make a quick get away.
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Hajo
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Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:28 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Jon Alma wrote:

Money is going to be relatively hard to come by and I'm trying to find ways of controlling inflation ... there won't be easy sources of money and there are going to be numerous money sinks - for instance travelling between islands (and there are lots of islands) involves paying for the trip. As a result money having weight shouldn't be a killer.


I think this is a point that is often overlooked in games, particular in multiplayer games, and many suffer from serious inflation. The problem is that players constantly "create" value (not only money, but most of all items), and this value keeps in circulation quite a long time. It seems that if the amount of items grows faster than the amount of players, things start to drop in value, because there are more items than needed.

Money sinks help indirectly, because some will force players to sell items for needed money. But maybe a economically well-working game needs more direct "item sinks" too? Like limited durability, and/or fatal item damages. I know player hate that, though :(

For my current project Sonnheim I chose one of the most minimalist approaches for inventories. Items are shown in a list, and players basically just flag some of them as "being equipped" by marking them and pressing the "equip" button.

http://sonnheim.wiki.sourceforge.net/Using+the+inventory+view

Formerly I used a paper doll system, but figured the player gains no benefit, and the drag and drop action is more complex to implement than the button press event.

http://rpgdx.net/uploads/screenshot447.png

And my item editor much looks like a spreadsheet on the "extended item attributes" section, and I noticed a whole lot of attributes are still missing ... so we suffer the same fate there.

http://sonnheim.wiki.sourceforge.net/Sonnheim+item+editor

I'm still a bit clueless how to display that to the player, in a compressed, yet comprehensive form. Right now the player sees about the information that is in the leftmost list and the "description field". How much information do have to show about your items, and how do you plan to do that? Just curious :)

Ah, and I forgot to say, a nice font you are using there :)
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Jon Alma
Monkey-Butler


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Hajo wrote:
Jon Alma wrote:

Money is going to be relatively hard to come by and I'm trying to find ways of controlling inflation ... there won't be easy sources of money and there are going to be numerous money sinks - for instance travelling between islands (and there are lots of islands) involves paying for the trip. As a result money having weight shouldn't be a killer.


I think this is a point that is often overlooked in games, particular in multiplayer games, and many suffer from serious inflation. The problem is that players constantly "create" value (not only money, but most of all items), and this value keeps in circulation quite a long time. It seems that if the amount of items grows faster than the amount of players, things start to drop in value, because there are more items than needed.

Often overlooked by the developers and blindingly obvious to the player. The worst example I've seen is Dungeon Siege (which is otherwise fun in an action RPG-lite sort of way). At the start of the game the player picks up the odd gold coin and spending money is a tricky business. Then suddenly, as the monsters gain levels the reward for killing them expoldes to the point that I hardly ever bother picking gold because I already have too much.

Hajo wrote:
Money sinks help indirectly, because some will force players to sell items for needed money. But maybe a economically well-working game needs more direct "item sinks" too? Like limited durability, and/or fatal item damages. I know player hate that, though :(

Items already have a durability (the little heart in the screenshot) and as they are used they wear out. Swords need sharpening, armour needs repairing and other objects eventually break. Which creates self-made missions (I need to get to the nearest blacksmith to repair things) and item/money sinks. As a player I quite like it (as long as the user interface for repairing things is easy to use with the minimum of clicks)

Hajo wrote:
For my current project Sonnheim I chose one of the most minimalist approaches for inventories. Items are shown in a list, and players basically just flag some of them as "being equipped" by marking them and pressing the "equip" button.

http://sonnheim.wiki.sourceforge.net/Using+the+inventory+view

Formerly I used a paper doll system, but figured the player gains no benefit, and the drag and drop action is more complex to implement than the button press event.

It's true it's more complex to get working, but as I get a nice character model more or less for free I thought why not. I'm also a sucker for eye candy myself ;)

Hajo wrote:
And my item editor much looks like a spreadsheet on the "extended item attributes" section, and I noticed a whole lot of attributes are still missing ... so we suffer the same fate there.

http://sonnheim.wiki.sourceforge.net/Sonnheim+item+editor

I'm still a bit clueless how to display that to the player, in a compressed, yet comprehensive form. Right now the player sees about the information that is in the leftmost list and the "description field". How much information do have to show about your items, and how do you plan to do that? Just curious :)

It's taken a while to sort this out, and I still haven't got it quite nailed down, but the idea is to display the things that are really important to the player. If the item is a weapon then I need to display the attack bonus, if it's armour then I have to show the defense bonus and so on. At the moment the value and quantity of each item are also shown. Hopefully this will more or less be enough otherwise I'll add some kind of tool tip or popup so that all the boring detail on any given object can be seen (but only for one object at a time). It's worth noting that as far as stats are concerned I tend to hide them a bit - stats should be visible for comparison and decision making, but only in an 'executive summary' rather than a 'full detailed report with accompanying Excel file'.

Hajo wrote:
Ah, and I forgot to say, a nice font you are using there :)

Took a while to narrow down on this one, especially as I eventually want to have multilingual support (I live in France so would like to use fonts with all the fun accents we get here!). If you're interested (and don't already know) it's called Vinque and is a freeware font that you can very easily find on the net.
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Hajo
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Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Jon Alma wrote:

It's worth noting that as far as stats are concerned I tend to hide them a bit - stats should be visible for comparison and decision making, but only in an 'executive summary' rather than a 'full detailed report with accompanying Excel file'.


I think you are on the right track there. I've simplified many things in my latest project. Players seemed to be overwhelmed by the amount of item attributes in my former project. Hiding the unnecessary is a good idea, just sometimes it's a bit tricky to find out where to draw the line.

It seems things must be simple enough that a player can get a grasp of them by a single look. From what I was told this means less then 7 values shown, preferably around 3 or less for most items.

Jon Alma wrote:
Hajo wrote:
Ah, and I forgot to say, a nice font you are using there :)

Took a while to narrow down on this one, especially as I eventually want to have multilingual support (I live in France so would like to use fonts with all the fun accents we get here!). If you're interested (and don't already know) it's called Vinque and is a freeware font that you can very easily find on the net.


Thank you for the hint! Getting a better font was on my list for a while :)
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Jon Alma
Monkey-Butler


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Hajo wrote:
Jon Alma wrote:

It's worth noting that as far as stats are concerned I tend to hide them a bit - stats should be visible for comparison and decision making, but only in an 'executive summary' rather than a 'full detailed report with accompanying Excel file'.


I think you are on the right track there. I've simplified many things in my latest project. Players seemed to be overwhelmed by the amount of item attributes in my former project. Hiding the unnecessary is a good idea, just sometimes it's a bit tricky to find out where to draw the line.

It seems things must be simple enough that a player can get a grasp of them by a single look. From what I was told this means less then 7 values shown, preferably around 3 or less for most items.

You can always try to reduce things down by working out the context. For instance an item's value needs to be shown when in the trading screen, but does it need to be shown in the normal inventory view (probably because the player will want to know the value of something before dropping it)? There are lots of stats to sort through, but if you ask yourself do I (as a player) need that stat now then you can cut out a lot. Looking at all the attributes you are gnerating for each object (a lot more than me for the moment) I would try for a light description for the main inventory and a detailed popup for those times when you want to let people all about the item. Having said that a lot of the attributes are likely to be mutually exclusive (are many weapons going to do both frost and fire damage?) so you can display only the non-zero stats. It might even be possible to generate nice immersive descriptions such as "the Ice Giant's sword strikes down its victims with a terrible frostbite (20-30pts of damage)" - just also include icons and stats for ease of reference and for those people who need to number crunch when role playing ;)

Hajo wrote:
Thank you for the hint! Getting a better font was on my list for a while :)

If you want some more fonts then just let me know - I spent ages trying out various fonts when starting the coding of Legends. Vinque is by far the cleaness and clearest in game (with the OpenGL code I'm using), but I do use other fonts when creating still screens and menus for example.
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RedSlash
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Joined: 12 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: [quote]

For controlling inflation, you could price items based on the amount of circulation of money. So more created money = higher item prices.

The method I am thinking of using is a trade based system. Monsters drop minerals rather than gold which you must trade in for money at a shop at a price based on the market price. So if you decide to go on a crazy farming run, you'll find that your minerals will devalue pretty quickly.
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Hajo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: [quote]

In a multiplayer game, you cannot set prices that easily. Players will trade with each other and negotiate their own prices.

To avoid inflation, the game core must ensure that money keeps a constant value, so that players don't rise the price that they (can) ask for items all the time.

It is difficult, since this means very careful balancing of the amount of money available to players on one side and the amount of items on the other.
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RedSlash
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:26 am    Post subject: [quote]

I guess the nature of MMORPG's makes it nearly impossible to have a fixed (or controlled) amount of money/item in circulation. So if nobody's spending or using items then does that mean monsters will just stop dropping goods?

I think the multi-currency idea would work pretty well in MMO. Whenever one currency gets out of hand, you could simply obsolete it in favour of a new stronger currency. You could also introduce a new currency every year (through patches) or flip-flop between the two currencies every year. I don't know how that would really work out though.
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Jon Alma
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Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: [quote]

RedSlash wrote:
I guess the nature of MMORPG's makes it nearly impossible to have a fixed (or controlled) amount of money/item in circulation. So if nobody's spending or using items then does that mean monsters will just stop dropping goods?

I think the multi-currency idea would work pretty well in MMO. Whenever one currency gets out of hand, you could simply obsolete it in favour of a new stronger currency. You could also introduce a new currency every year (through patches) or flip-flop between the two currencies every year. I don't know how that would really work out though.


I have the advantage that the game I'm developing is single player so the economy is much more controllable. I don't intent to put hard coded rules in place to control the amount of money in place, just limit the amount of money coming into the world (through rewards, profits on trade, etc) and trying to find lots of (interesting to the player) ways money and objects can be consumed (wear and tear, necessary travel costs, thieft by NPCs, etc).

Having two currencies helps keep money valuable and in effect I will be changing currency mid game - the player moves to the enemy kingdoms and needs to start using a different currency (or risk being labelled a spy). It will be possible to find illegal money changers but the rate of exchange will be used as another money sink.

Just switching currency by making one obsolete and forcing the use of another would not go down at all well especially in a MMO game unless the change is very rare and logical (such as the move to a new independent kingdom). The last thing you want is to have a player stuck with redundant or badly devalued currency with no way to use it. In Legends it will be possible to use each currency at any time, but only on certain islands. And (as already mentioned) it will be possible to convert currency (either through the money changers, or in preparation by buying transferable high value/low weight items such as diamonds).
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Verious
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Using different currencies is a really good idea and actually very realistic in medieval settings where standardized/universal currencies were very uncommon.
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