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Verious
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Joined: 06 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: XNA [quote]

Has anyone written a game (or other application) using the Microsoft XNA SDK?
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RedSlash
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Joined: 12 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: [quote]

Tried too.. but failed because of the lack of tutorials available during the time it came out. It seems like a very nice and easy framework to work with.

I think right now the only incentive to use XNA is to target the XBOX360, but that has its complications as in you need to be subscribed to their game creator's club ($99/year) and you can only distribute your game in source code form to others who are also subscribed to the game creator's club.
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Mattias Gustavsson
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: [quote]

For me, the biggest problem with XNA is compatibility issues. There's all sorts of runtimes and stuff which the end-user will need to even run your game. It can easily add 30-40 Mb to your games download size, and I'm sure it will make it less likely to run on older machines.

I really like the idea of a player being able to just download my games and run them, regardless of what they have installed on their machines. That's why I've reduced dependencies for my engine, and now it should run on any windows version out of the box. :D

But I've heard XNA is real nice for development, so I can see why it is so tempting to use...
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Nodtveidt
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Joined: 11 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Tried it for a little bit but ran into some of the same issues that RedSlash did...there's just not enough information out there to help a newcomer get started. Furthermore, you are required to code all of your stuff in C#, which is a truly pathetic frankenlanguage that only Java weenies understand. On top of that, you need XP SP2 to install it, and not all of us are able to install SP2. It's way too much hassle for the headache it will create for you.
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Verious
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: [quote]

The main reason I ask is because I do most my coding in C# and I recently stumbled across the RPG Zero website. The author indicates the time from concept to prototype was very short using the XNA framework (and C#). The idea of writing console games for the Xbox 360 definately intrigues me.
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Nodtveidt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:25 am    Post subject: [quote]

Don't get your hopes up for Xbox 360 development either though. That was essentially a plot set up by Microsoft to lure people away from competing technologies, most notably efforts by Nintendo. While it is true that XNA is able to produce games for the Xbox 360, the process is rather retarded and not free, and forget about trying to make a profit from it without investing a lot of cash.
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DeveloperX
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Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:57 pm    Post subject: [quote]

I'm currently using XNA to build a 3d rpg engine for an old design that I wrote up many years ago.
So far its been going well.
I've got heighmapped terrain, and fully textured models.
All the rendering is done with custom vertex & pixel shaders.
I really like the way XNA works.

I think its a great opportunity to learn the technology that you need to know to be able to develop for the 360.

I like the fact that with a well written game, you don't have to do anything to the code to release for the PC and the 360.
That really got my interest. Surprisingly enough, cause anyone who knows me, knows that I was always against microsoft on just about everything. Heh. times change. people change. :D
Give it a whirl man. I think you will like XNA.
If you need help, let me know. I can direct you to some great tutorials and help you myself if you want.
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Verious
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: [quote]

RedSlash wrote:
I think right now the only incentive to use XNA is to target the XBOX360, but that has its complications as in you need to be subscribed to their game creator's club ($99/year) and you can only distribute your game in source code form to others who are also subscribed to the game creator's club.


As far I understand, based on the information on the new XNA Creator's Club website, games can be distributed in compiled form to other Creator's Club members; wider distribution to the full Xbox 360 userbase requires a publihsing license from Microsoft and is only available for games which are deemed commercial quality.

Mattias Gustavsson wrote:
For me, the biggest problem with XNA is compatibility issues. There's all sorts of runtimes and stuff which the end-user will need to even run your game. It can easily add 30-40 Mb to your games download size, and I'm sure it will make it less likely to run on older machines.


Isn't XNA based largely on Microsoft's .NET Compact Framework? If so, I don't think the dependencies would be more than a couple megabytes; however, I can see where compatibility issues could arise, since I believe XNA requires a fairly powerful graphics card with modern shader support.

Nodtveidt wrote:
While it is true that XNA is able to produce games for the Xbox 360, the process is rather retarded and not free, and forget about trying to make a profit from it without investing a lot of cash.


Since the Creator's Club membership is relatively inexpensive at just under $100 per year, I don't think it poses a substantial barrier for most developers.

It also appears the entire game can be developed and tested on a PC prior to purchasing and using the Creator's Club membership to upload the game to an Xbox 360.

Since game development is a hobby for me and I am not try to write a commercially successful game, I don't think these limitations will be an issue.

DeveloperX wrote:
I'm currently using XNA to build a 3d rpg engine for an old design that I wrote up many years ago.
So far its been going well.
I've got heighmapped terrain, and fully textured models.
All the rendering is done with custom vertex & pixel shaders.
I really like the way XNA works.


I would love to hear more about this project as you progress.


EDIT: The following is a list of the required dependencies for XNA:

Microsoft .NET 2.0 (22.4 MB for Windows versions prior to Vista, included with Vista)
DirectX 9.0c (212.6 MB for Windows versions prior to Vista, included with Vista)
XNA runtime 2.0 (2.1 MB)

On Vista the total dependencies are 2.1 MB. On Windows XP I think most gamers would already have DirectX 9+ installed and possibly Microsoft .NET 2.0.
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DeveloperX
202192397


Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Verious wrote:

I would love to hear more about this project as you progress.


Sure thing.

I've got these obstacles in my way that I'm hacking away at:

* camera is not correctly following the terrain
* game models are not scaled properly
* animated meshes are not being loaded correctly
* textures on animated meshes are corrupt
* water moves faster than expected
* timing for skysphere rotation is hap-hazard
* clicking on terrain giving the wrong coordinates
* far too slow, need to implement like some octree culling or something

I don't want to post screenshots until I get more done, and right now I'm using ripped textures from google images for testing.
I will create my own textures before I show off anything.

The modeling is being done in wings3d.
Textures in the GIMP.
UV Mapping is done in wings3d.
I'm using visual c# express 2005 and xna game studio 1.0 (soon to convert to xna 2.0 and vc# express 2008..but I'm not sure if I'm ready to upgrade. might cause too many issues right now...)
I just found FX Composer 2, and am learning to use it to make shader creation easier...and to think my existing shaders are done by hand! :P

The game is set in a classic traditional setting (you know, the typical environment ala final fantasy / breath of fire / secret of mana)

The camera will be first person and third person depending on the setting the player wants to use (tab key toggles camera mode)

I haven't got a set of 360 controller input setup yet, as I don't own a 360 controller to test with yet, but that will eventually be added. Easy enough. I know the code to do it, so its not going to be an issue.

I'll post more later in the dev process.
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RedSlash
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Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:45 am    Post subject: [quote]

Verious wrote:

...games can be distributed in compiled form to other Creator's Club members...

I believe your are correct. Things have changed since the last time I used it.

But looking upon it now, I find that XNA is is too restrictive. Developing for the 360 still restricts my audience to developers only (the ones who would actually sign up for the game creator's club), whereas my audience is probably more of regular users. Therefore, dev'ing for the 360 is more of a "something fun to do" rather than something I would consider seriously for even my hobby projects. Furthermore, XNA prevents you from having direct access to the 360 hardware (i.e. only limited or no access to the DVD drive, CPU cores, network, etc..) and trying to keep a Windows port which would compile okay along with the 360, means those restrictions carry over. If I were serious about 360 development, I'd probably rather get myself into some company and get experience using the XBOX360 SDK rather than waste my time on XNA and then having to restart from scratch.
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