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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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 Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: How to prosecute "illegal" actions in a RPG |
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| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | If you're picking the lock to the bank vault in broad daylight, even success should have dire consequences. |
From: http://forums.rpgdx.net/viewtopic.php?p=25933#25933
If we are about actions that are illegal in the given game world, I still ponder what is a sensible way to prosecute and punish them.
I'm entangled with a mix of questions, so I cannot even clearly write about my troubles. I'll try to give a list of things I feel stuck with, and then ask for help.
1) If the game world does not have visible guards, policemen or similar, players most likely do not expect prosecution of illegal actions? So does my game world need security personal as NPCs?
2) If an action stays unseen, players will expect not to be punished? The almighty computer which runs the entire game world sees everything ... this is linked to the question of visible security personal from above, should players actions be judged if they are seen by a security officer only, or general if the almighty game system notices them?
3) If the action is unseen, but the results are seen, the game system might still be able to track down the originator. Should that happen? Is it fair?
4) Should players be warned if they are about to do something "wrong", or should the game system let them do until the action is finished and then start prosecution?
4a) How should the rules be told to players in general?
5) In an MMO, people might try to trick other people into a situation where the not-so-almighty game system thinks they are the culprits. Since people are good at finding exploits, I don't really like the idea of automated prosecution?
Sorry for the incoherent thoughts - just shows how confused my head is about this issue.
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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If you've played Morrowind, you should have a good idea of how to answer these questions. As I have, I will do my best to describe what I did and did not like about their system for punishment.
| Quote: | | 1) If the game world does not have visible guards, policemen or similar, players most likely do not expect prosecution of illegal actions? So does my game world need security personal as NPCs? |
First, I'll assume you mean "personnel". And my answer is yes. If I have thieving skills as part of the game and I know the game world's code of conduct, I should be able to deliberately disobey if no one sees me. The consequences/following actions to come should depend on (a) the value of the item, (b) your social standing, (c) the zealousness of the law in the current area (do only guards see and punish law breakers? If the citizens see, do they alert guards or maybe try a citizen's arrest? Can you catch an alarmed citizen and kill him before alerting a guard?) and (d) your charisma - are you able to bullshit your way out of the guard arresting you?
As for specific punishments, a minigame for jailbreak might be fun if there are multiple prisons with enough variety, but I see that as a negative "Yup,ThatWillNeverGetOld" even so. Morrowind allowed you to take a fine for minor crimes, go to prison and have time pass as well as have a random stat decreased (a good deterrent, I think), or just fight the guard.
For crimes that would cause an actual investigation (i.e. not a stolen bike), you might want the investigation to take time, maybe have real time interactions of the detectives with their team or witnesses. For witnesses, you could vary their willingness to cooperate with police and even if they would come under suspicion themselves. Many possibilities there.
| Quote: | | 2) If an action stays unseen, players will expect not to be punished? The almighty computer which runs the entire game world sees everything ... this is linked to the question of visible security personal from above, should players actions be judged if they are seen by a security officer only, or general if the almighty game system notices them? |
Answered above in my spiel.
| Quote: | | 3) If the action is unseen, but the results are seen, the game system might still be able to track down the originator. Should that happen? Is it fair? |
You could take the above route and have investigations, and/or you could have automatic suspicions when you return to the scene of the crime (I suspect the main character would be different enough from the NPC populous to warrant suspicion). I do warn you to not do as Morrowind did. I remember a specific quest where I had to steal a diamond from an apothecary. I did so unseen, I heard nothing about her noticing it was missing... but later when I tried to sell her a (different!) diamond, I was instantly being chopped up by a guard. The fuck is that? So be careful in this situation. Come up with some quests where some gray area might arise and try to see how you would like to handle those situations.
| Quote: | | 4) Should players be warned if they are about to do something "wrong", or should the game system let them do until the action is finished and then start prosecution? |
As long as you're subtle and consistent. Oblivion I think did an okay job at this by simply making the cursor red when you're about to steal something, pick a lock or (odd, but understandably enough) sleep in a stranger's bed. When the action is morally gray area is the more interesting part. If your captain is oppressive with some other reasons for not liking him and the first mate tries to start a mutiny - who do you side with? Do you think that the action of killing/attacking should have a morality marker at any time? (I mean, why should the game decide who should live or die? That elf you slaughtered could have been a child murderer... you could have been doing society a favor).
| Quote: | | 4a) How should the rules be told to players in general? |
Again, be subtle and obvious. Petty actions like perjury or slander I don't think should be considered in a game. Stay simple with universal morality (don't steal, don't kill, don't sleep in a dude's fucking bed)
| Quote: | | 5) In an MMO, people might try to trick other people into a situation where the not-so-almighty game system thinks they are the culprits. Since people are good at finding exploits, I don't really like the idea of automated prosecution? |
Your actions are your own and yours only. My proposed system of suspecting accomplices should only be for NPCs if anyone. So if you just happen to be standing in the middle of 10 civilians murdered by some asshole, the guards would not suspect you. Odd, but fair.
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Rainer Deyke
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Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:35 am Post subject: |
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Fundamentally, the game software is responsible for enforcing game rules. Any action that the game software allows is, by definition, allowed by the game rules. If it is possible to commit crimes in the game world, then committing crimes is a valid gameplay mechanism, and must be treated as such.
There are no general rules about which gameplay mechanism to use, except that it must be fun. Therefore:- If invisible surveillance (by an all-knowing deity, a wizard, or hidden cameras) is part of the fun of the game, include it. Otherwise have visible security personnel.
- If finding out about the laws of the land by breaking them first is part of the fun of the game, do that. If not, clearly communicate the rules to the player.
- If blaming other people for your crimes is part of the game, include that. Actually, I think this would pretty much always be fun. If you don't like it, make the crime-checking rules simple and clear enough that this doesn't happen.
- If for some reason you don't want the player to commit crimes, don't include the option at all.
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Ninkazu
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Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Rainer, but I think the questions being asked here are when and why should you choose such options. Am I right?
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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the answers so far :) Will need a while to think through everything but this will definitely help.
| Ninkazu wrote: | | I agree with Rainer, but I think the questions being asked here are when and why should you choose such options. Am I right? |
I had a specific problem in mind, but it's also good to get a more general view on the topic. And yes, I was mostly interested what would be adviced in case of my problem, but I also tried to generalize my questions without mentioning the specific problem.
The problem was to avoid vandalizing. For example, to cut down a tree somewhere deep in the forest most likely doesn't bother anyone, but cutting down a tree in the city park will. Rainer was right with his hint that one can just forbid "crimes", the problem was that the fact if the action is a crime depends not only on the action but also the context (where does it happen, does a guard actually see it ...) Guard NPCs seems a good idea in that case, since somewhere in the forest there naturally aren't guards, but I think people will understand that cutting down a tree in the park with a guardian watching is a bad idea.
For sure it's been very helpful to read through the answers, the more specific ones as well as the more generic ones.
Rainer's last option "don't include the option at all" was what I did so far, but I found that it limits the players ways to interact with the environment, and I was looking for more interesting ideas (from a players point of view).
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