[DeveloperX]

[Fadera]

I do try, but sometimes its very confusing. Maybe I should try some game art instead? Maybe that'll be more up my alley considering that I'm much more artsy. D:
I was thinking that maybe I wanna major in that when I get to college, but I think I need some background first before I could head into that...

But I'm rambling - books do help a bit, but sometimes they aren't as clear as they can be and a lot of trial and error can still be done even with what they provide.

[tcaudilllg]

The problem with VERGE is that you have to make certain files for every project. It also relies on libraries, too much in my opinion. Libraries are great when you have a solid foundation, but are no substitute for component building tools. If it were possible to get a VERGE game going with like, five simple commands then that'd be great, but it's just not the case. Personally I wish it was more like VB: defaults are great, templates are better. But nothing yet in the indie scene has combined a great set of fundamental, default-setting commands with the scalability needed to create something really amazing without significant programming effort.

Because of this, people who have story writing talent tend not to make indie games except with RPGMaker. DiverDown is a rare exception... come to think of it, I'm not sure why its creator decided to use VERGE as its platform, although I guess the game was already very old at the time of its completion, and when VERGE first came out it was superior to any (free) library out there.

The most impressive VERGE products I've ever seen were a Final Fantasy remake demo which was abandoned, and a FF-clone RPG that's been completed up to its first chapter. (minus a horse)

[tcaudilllg]

The ideal game development system allows the designer to start with a fully functional game right off the bat. Then it allows the designer to easily switch out system components using a top-down approach. Say you don't want the movement to be tile-based? Switch in a pixel-based script for the tile script. Don't want to use a command-based battle system? Switch it for an action-adventure script. And from there, switch between components in that system to allow for further customization.

In general, what's missing from the game development paradigm is a component object model.

[grenideer]

Well, I have literally not read a thread in this forum in 4 years, and here I am randomly looking around and jump in to this thread and see Diver Down mentioned. That's great!

First off, thanks to everyone for compliments on the game. It feels great to have created something that keeps popping up every now and then.

So let me address all the questions and comments:

1) The bluebird egg is essential.

2) I made the first segment of the game way too hard. It is probably my biggest mistake in the design of the game. Fighting all the battles alone and the money situation in Emil are not the most fun problems to deal with. The game will get a lot less difficult if you stick with it. Gathering all the herbs is helpful if you navigate the fights correctly. Don't spend money on healing needlessly.

3) To heal the kid, you need to find something in the outpost dungeon. The Emil elder sends you there. This is optional.

4) I used verge 2 to make Diver Down.

5) The website is and has been working:
http://verge-rpg.com/

6) verge 3 is the current engine, and I can't really help with version. Suffice it to say, v2 and v3 are not the friendliest of engines for someone new or not wanting to program in C. On the other hand, if you want to learn how to program in C, v2 and v3 are good stepping stones. I credit verge for my career in the game industry.

7) Hello again Josiah! The stuff you said about the egg and that Emil segment are all true.

8) A current working link for the Diver Down site is the one Josiah posted:
http://www.grenideer.com/diverdown/index.htm
Unfortunately, there are quite a few problems that I see, like the subdomain (diverdown.grenideer.com) and the default pages not working. Also, I just realized the email address listed on the contact page is not working. I will try to fix all these issues today.

9) Lord Galbalan, Diver Down took 5 years to make, from 98 to 03. I first found verge when verge1 was out. It was a very popular engine that was very easy to use - you started with a full game and could swap out functionality as you suggest. It was very easy to get a map and characters walking around and talking, so there were lots of demos. As I developed DD and verge 2 came out, it was all about giving power to the programmer. You didn't have to use their hardcoded menus, instead you could make your own. The problem with verge 2 is that the barrier to entry was high. There should have been default or base menu components to get you started but there was nothing. Since I was already in development, I was up for the challenge and wrote a library for verge (purge) to help others out, although I don't think anyone used it.

I don't know if other people were looking for me on these boards in the last couple years, so if you have a question, just ask here and I'll check back.
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Diver Down

[js71]

Neat to see you post here again, Grenideer! I certainly hope you'll visit the forums more often. :)

(This thread reminds me, it's probably about time I did another Diver Down playthrough)

~Josiah

[grenideer]

[Terry]

Hey grenideer, I loved Diver Down :)

Are you working on anything new?
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http://www.distractionware.com

[js71]

I think I recall reading in an interview that he didn't plan to do any other indie games (I believe he's gone pro since DD came out?), but I could be-- and certainly hope that I am-- wrong. News of a new game by Grenideer would certainly get me excited!

~Josiah

[BadMrBox]

Oh Grenideer. Hiya :).
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[tcaudilllg]

So I guess the VERGE team has some bugs to work out, eh?

[grenideer]

Hi Terry. It looks like you have some interesting things on your site. I'm a bit intrigued about the interactive story experimentation.

Unfortunately, I am not working on anything new in the indie community. Every once in a while I play with the idea of doing an rpg (Diver Down or otherwise) for iPhone or XBox live but never really seriously. I am usually too busy for side projects these days.

I don't know what you mean about verge bugs, LordGalbalan. I have not so much as looked at the engine in 6 years, although I poke my head around the forums once in a while. They apparently just released an updated v3 engine for mac and windows, but I can't comment on what those are like.

By the way, any issues with my website and email address should be fixed now, so I can be contacted that way again.
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Diver Down

[tcaudilllg]

Verge is more complicated than ever, which is what I meant by "bugs". Although their programming may indeed be accurate, the actual usability of those programs needs a lot of work. Verge 1 lacked power. Verge 2 lacked usability.

Verge 3 won't even run on my machine, though I've seen enough of the syntax to know that it's basically become C++. No scripting language for games should ever need the keyword "void".

There is apparently a relationship between being a good programmer and an unoriginal game designer.

[grenideer]

I see where you are coming from, but Verge has never really treated its language as merely a 'scripting' language. Verge C, or VC, was really meant to be a lite, easy to learn version of C. You can argue whether or not that is a good thing but it is what it is. It stems from Verge's heritage as one of the older rpg engines where you had any semblance of control.

Of course it is much more popular these days for designers to have scripting experience and for most of hooking up levels to be done this way.

Verge 2 was for programmers, not designers. I had to write a function to buffer memory so I could blit an image to the screen.

I am not making excuses for Verge but just stating who the target audience is. I think there has been some work to plug Lua into Verge, for example, so programmers could write in VC and designers could script in Lua. But you are correct that without additional tools like this it would be more difficult for a designer to deal with than using something else.
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Diver Down

[tcaudilllg]

I'm not criticizing VERGE; I'm just noting the fact that between RPGMaker and VERGE is a very big gap, and nothing yet has closed it.