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RampantCoyote
Demon Hunter
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 546
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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 Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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/agree Mattias.
There's an old saying that "The Perfect is the enemy of The Good."
One of my favorite quotes is attributed to General George S. Patton, but which actually originated with a civil war general (or so I've heard), which goes, "A good plan, violently executed today, is far better than a perfect plan next week."
Perfection is unattainable. It's all about the progress. The three most important factors in becoming a great game designer are the same as in just about every other thing in life - practice, practice, and practice. With feedback and all that other good stuff.
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Tales of the Rampant Coyote - Old-School Game Developer talks Indie Games, RPGs, and the Games Biz
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:41 am Post subject: |
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WindowsCE support is probably a non-starter. Regretfully pulling away from it.
Still thinking XUL app.
When developing ideas, you try to get it perfect. You settle for less than perfect due to implementation issues, but the idea itself should always be top notch. Never pursue an idea that is not the best idea you have. It doesn't have to be perfect but it must have the least disadvantages of all the options you have available. Anything else is cheating yourself.
I'd just as well we made a damn good set of tools and created code for independent platforms. (like Flash, WebKit, Java, etc). We could do this with a three layer system where the developer's code is converted to an intermediate code, and from there converted to the final platform code via plugin.
This app should be done in XUL. No reason that I can see to do it in anything else. XUL is where things are headed... I just saw ten XUL dev kits today for Java alone.
If we do it in XUL, anything which supports XUL will be a platform... or am I mistaken?
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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| RampantCoyote wrote: | /agree Mattias.
There's an old saying that "The Perfect is the enemy of The Good."
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I find myself often running into problems there. I'm usually satisfied with much less than perfection, and I have some admiration for good and creative kludges.
Yet in my past projects it almost continuously happened that when I thought something is good enough and released it, players told me it's not good enough, they demanded more perfection. It's ok for a while, most likely actually helps to improve the project some more, but at some point I just felt they demand to much, and became very frustrated about the gap of myself being happy with the work and then instantly being told it's not good enough. For a while this killed my wish to do any projects anymore. I just wanted peace.
I'm not sure how to escape this problem. In some places it's happening already again, and usually kills my enjoyment for the task. At the moment I try to firmly belive that it's good when I like it, and other people can say what they want. But I know I can't stop hearing them, and it too often kills my mood and enjoyment of a project.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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What I try to do is figure out the thing that other people want, then find an intersection between what they want and what I want, and pursue that.
But I usually start with what they want first.
For example, people want a better GCS. I know this. I also want a better GCS. To make the best possible GCS, I need to identify what components of it are wanted by the most people. Then I might further filter these by which ones I think would be most helpful to myself. This way I end up on the one hand self-motivated, and on the other probably assured of some level of success. (unless of course there is competition whose developer is in sync with the masses on a markedly unusual level, which there could be).
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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LordGalbalan wrote: | What I try to do is figure out the thing that other people want, then find an intersection between what they want and what I want, and pursue that.
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That sounds liek a good idea. Still the catch is, that if the intersection is an X, they usually want a better X, than I'd want to create. The gap is then recognized by me as "demanding people" and "lazy/sloppy developer" by them, which has a high chance to end badly. I'm trying to find ways out of that, but some tension remains.
What is a GCS? I googled but the acronym seems to have a few dozen meanings. And I have a brain fail today.
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Mattias Gustavsson
Mage
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Royal Leamington Spa, UK
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Hajo
Demon Hunter
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 779
Location: Between chair and keyboard.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, that just proved my feeling that I have a brain fail today :P
Thanks Mattias!
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Hajo wrote: | | LordGalbalan wrote: | What I try to do is figure out the thing that other people want, then find an intersection between what they want and what I want, and pursue that.
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That sounds liek a good idea. Still the catch is, that if the intersection is an X, they usually want a better X, than I'd want to create. The gap is then recognized by me as "demanding people" and "lazy/sloppy developer" by them, which has a high chance to end badly. I'm trying to find ways out of that, but some tension remains.
What is a GCS? I googled but the acronym seems to have a few dozen meanings. And I have a brain fail today. |
Right well, the trick is to offer something that there is a clear need for, so then they really can't complain about what they are actually provided so long as it meets their needs. Of course then Microsoft takes your idea and "optimizes" it, and all the interest flees away from you. Still, you have the benefit of the "better mousetrap" that only you were willing to offer. You have changed the world and for that, you will at least be respected, even if you don't get rich. (and if you can't make everybody else rich, how do you justify being rich in the first place?).
The problem with the existing GCSs is that none of them have met the need: realizing ideas is just as difficult as ever, and implementation is still a pain. The need for a workable, cross-platform system remains unmet.
Trying to make a system that is both usable and fun can be difficult. But it has been accomplished before. ZZT is a case in point. I love that system. I wish someone would make a version of ZZT with graphics and a simple math system. That would be excellent.
Earlier I used the term "programmer" when I should have used the term "hacker". I understand that a lot of people have pride in their programming skills and consider themselves more than capable programmers, and I want to apologize for not respecting that qualified pride.
@Nodtveidt:
What can I do to enlist your support in this project?
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Mattias Gustavsson
Mage
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Royal Leamington Spa, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| LordGalbalan wrote: | | Right well, the trick is to offer something that there is a clear need for, so then they really can't complain about what they are actually provided so long as it meets their needs. |
Sure they can. It's what people do. And whatever product you make, it won't meet *everyones* needs. Do your own thing, and don't listen to vocal minorities.
| LordGalbalan wrote: | | The problem with the existing GCSs is that none of them have met the need |
I don't think that's right. There's plenty of GCSs which have met peoples needs. C++ and Pixie meets my needs. Some people are very happy with RPGmaker. GameMaker is very popular. A lot of people find that Flex and Flixel meets their needs. Some use C++ with SDL, allegro or any of the other libs available. Java is also a good choice. And so on.
People have different needs, and you can't make just one product which caters to every need of every person. There's room (and need) for variety.
Implementation will always be a pain, to some extent - no matter what tools you use. It's in its nature. But really, the implementation is still the easy bit -the design is what's hard.
Also, I think the question you have to ask yourself is: do you want to make games or do you want to make tools? I think that you really need to pick one or the other, or you won't make any of them. If it is games you want to make, don't go thinking that the best way to make them is to first build the right tools, to make it easier to make them. It doesn't work like that. Instead, learn the tools that are available, and use them to build the game. And if it is tools you want to make, just get started and release a first version, gather feedback and improve/rework it, then release another, and keep going until it's good (it will take ten years).
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www.mattiasgustavsson.com - My blog
www.rivtind.com - My Fantasy world and isometric RPG engine
www.pixieuniversity.com - Software 2D Game Engine
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toturi
Pretty, Pretty Fairy Princess
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| LordGalbalan wrote: | | Right well, the trick is to offer something that there is a clear need for, so then they really can't complain about what they are actually provided so long as it meets their needs. |
Right, so I tried to refrain from commenting on this thread, but you've gone from discussing merits of GCSs to declaring HTML 5 as the ultimate development platform to crazy nonsense about what you think good programmers do, only to end up with the following bit of paranoia:
| LordGalbalan wrote: | | Of course then Microsoft takes your idea and "optimizes" it, and all the interest flees away from you. |
Good lord, man, stay on topic. If nothing else, at least this thread is entertaining.
| LordGalbalan wrote: | | The problem with the existing GCSs is that none of them have met the need: realizing ideas is just as difficult as ever, and implementation is still a pain. The need for a workable, cross-platform system remains unmet. |
Guess what. This is what every major game development studio has been doing for the last 15 years. We build game engines that load and manage graphic and audio assets, while providing operating-system level services in a platform-independent way. We expend thousands of man-hours maintaining the game engine from one project to the next, improving and modifying it as we go along, applying new methods to make our games more compelling, fixing or outright discarding code and functionality that we deem obsolete. No game engine is ever perfect, not even ones used to ship top notch games. After every game we ship, we go back and rework the engine in preparation for the next project.
The point is, Mattias and RampantCoyote are correct when they say that you will do better to work on and actually build something than spend all your time planning and not have anything to show for it.
I will admit though, that if you really are trying to build something for hobby/homebrew/open source programmers, I tip my hat to you. At least with business partners, you can come to some sort of compromise.
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I want to make games that are accessible.
I was using Microsoft as a metaphor for the phenomena of non-inventive right-leaning people copying off of inventive left-wing people and eventually beating them in the marketplace. Microsoft is the biggest and well known, but it's not the only one.
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crazy nonsense about what you think good programmers do
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This does not impress me.
Actually, that whole spiel didn't impress me. For all those "thousands" of man hours, you can write the names of all the people who actually moved the industry a step forward design-wise on the back of a napkin. I'd say most of those hours spent are a product of inefficiency, rebuilding everything from the ground up on every project without reusing code.
Last edited by tcaudilllg on Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Would you use a ZZT-like language to make games? Would you use a simplistic, scripting language to make games?
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Mattias Gustavsson
Mage
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Royal Leamington Spa, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I find it really hard to get an understanding of what you're trying to achieve.
I think it would help the discussion if you could write up a post with a bullet-point list of all the features (short single-sentence descriptions, without referring to existing GCS's) you think is needed for a GCS to meet your needs.
Others might have more points they want to add to have it meet *their* needs, and so we'll get a proper requirements list, which is an essential first step of any project.
Once we have that, we can discuss the meaning and merits of the various points. People might also suggest GCS's which they believe might already meet all the points, and we can discuss what technology/language/platform would be best to build a GCS which meets all the points, and why.
Such a structured discussion could well be productive. What's been posted in this thread so far, can't. Are you up for it?
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www.mattiasgustavsson.com - My blog
www.rivtind.com - My Fantasy world and isometric RPG engine
www.pixieuniversity.com - Software 2D Game Engine
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tcaudilllg
Dragonmaster
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 1731
Location: Cedar Bluff, VA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Sure.
Here's what I need:
- Ease of implementation
- Easy-to-use tools
- One package
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Mattias Gustavsson
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Location: Royal Leamington Spa, UK
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