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Legends - Thinking About a New Development Model
 
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Jon Alma
Monkey-Butler


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Legends - Thinking About a New Development Model [quote]

Despite not having updated the Legends from the Lost Realms website for ages, work on the game has been continuing (latest addition a nice set of dungeons to wander through). Unfortunately, mainly due to changes with my (real/day) job I don't have quite as much time or energy to devote to development as I used to. This combined with the huge amount of content that needs to be fed into the game (something that I seriously underestimated when I started this project) means that I am beginning to look at different ways of organising development.

To explain, up until now this has been a solo project where I've worked on developing the code, creating the 3D models and other in game art assets and on creating the game quests and storyline (in other words do the equivalent of Morrowind or Oblivion with a team of one!). However, I simply don't have the time to work on everything and get the game finished within a reasonable timeframe. Instead I would like to concentrate more on getting the game engine completed (not too far off) and filling out the main story arc while seeing if I can collaborate with other people on for instance better animation of the character models and creation of side quests and other game content (or even in the extreme introduce alternative storylines and parallel game worlds).

The problem is that this remains a hobby project so the ability to pay people for work is limited to non-existent while at this stage there are no concrete plans to turn this into a retail title of any form (so discussions around revenue-sharing would be vague at best).

From experience what would your view on this be - is there any chance of getting other people involved 'just for the fun of it' or because it would give other people access to a solid (if still incomplete) RPG game engine they could use for their own projects (building up community content and code as we go along)? Or if the best approach is to pay/revenue share people are there any best practices or useful advice to take into account? Finally are there any particularly good online communities where I could post requests for help (for instance in adding art assets or creating new parts of the world)?

Any ideas you have would be most welcome - before I get going on another development phase I would like to have a clearer idea of how to prioritise what I do and stop trying to do everything at once!

Cheers,

Jon.
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DeveloperX
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Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:47 am    Post subject: [quote]

As a man in somewhat the same situation, and having dealt with these problems for quite some time now, I can offer a little advice.

Take these statements with a grain of salt, as I am neither the almighty expert on the topic of discussion nor do I claim that my methods will work for anyone.

With that out of the way, lets see if I can get my tired brain to help. :D

First off I believe that a solid project management work ethic is important to completing anything.

Secondly, to answer your question of if there is any chance to get people to join your cause without monetary compensation, I can tell you that it is possible to recruit people if you are willing to share enough about your game project's details to get them as excited about working on it as you are.

This is key: if you cannot get others at least as excited about your game as you are, then the project is condemned to fail.

You don't have to pretend that your game will make a profit, nor fill people's heads with false hopes of making any money at all on your project. (which, honestly, it is very unlikely to make a profit with games in this day and age - with a few exceptions of course)

Be open and honest with the people that you are trying to recruit, and do what you can to get them as interested in seeing your game finished as you are, and you will have a team that will do what it takes - if they have the discipline of course.

That brings me to another point.
Don't post expecting people to bite. That only gets you really bad help that causes more failures in a project than you want.

The key to building a team capable of successfully completing a project is to seek out people in the line of work you want them to do for you and see if you can pique their interests with your project.

This is very similar to pitching your game to a potential publisher.

If you can excite someone within 5 minutes about your game, then you have a higher chance of success.

If you yourself are not excited about your game, then it is time to refactor/revamp/redesign/whatever you want to call it - your project and repeat this until you are practically losing your self control to your project.


If you are seeking animators, then go hit some 3d forums, look at people's works and contact them -- don't make a post and hope that you get a bite.

I've never had any successful bites trying to recruit people in that manner.

Good luck to you and your project.
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Locrian
Wandering Minstrel


Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 105
Location: VA USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject: [quote]

Making a Morrowind game with one person and no budget is indeed insane. Maybe 30 people and a multimillion dollar budget could get close.

DeveloperX brings up a good point. Though I've always been impressed by your screen shots I have no idea what your project is about.

To be brutally blunt it looks like a generic fantasy game, or a clone of the boring European parts of Morrowind. Pretty engine but not an interesting world. You might have trouble recruiting creative artsy types when there is nothing to invent, just a bunch of standard medieval European stuff that we've all seen a billion times before. Artists want to put their own spin on things. Exercise their "vision" and all that artsy fartsy stuff. I don't know, maybe thats just me since I'm more into the concept art side of things. Modelers might not care as much.

Investing time into learning a well known engine like the Unreal engine might be a good move if you want to expand your team. Its the first engine 3d modelers go to when they want to see their creations in a real time engine. They are already familiar with it, its free for non-commercial games, has sexy shaders and whatnot. Theres also the Source engine. If your game is awesome enough Valve might hire you.

Anyway I'm no programmer or game designer but I'd suggest to start with something small and fun that requires minimal art assets, release it to the public, then build on it. Epic Morrowind 2 The Second Coming of Christ Nerevarine is too much for any indie team. If you're hellbent on doing the epic RPG thing maybe start out with a small island that the player is restrained to until the next episode is released where "the weather is finally calm enough" for the ship to arrive to take the player to the next island. Or focus on one town and make it fun and alive, then release another town or quest later. Or find fun ways for the player to entertain themselves to take some of the burden off of you. Releasing in chunks would probably force you to take smaller bites. Maybe also put some pressure on you to not become lazy since people will be hounding you for the next episode of Awesome Game, and it might also bring you new recruits to help with following episodes.
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Jon Alma
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Sunny South of France

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Locrian wrote:
Making a Morrowind game with one person and no budget is indeed insane. Maybe 30 people and a multimillion dollar budget could get close.


Locrian wrote:
Anyway I'm no programmer or game designer but I'd suggest to start with something small and fun that requires minimal art assets, release it to the public, then build on it. Epic Morrowind 2 The Second Coming of Christ Nerevarine is too much for any indie team. If you're hellbent on doing the epic RPG thing maybe start out with a small island that the player is restrained to until the next episode is released where "the weather is finally calm enough" for the ship to arrive to take the player to the next island.


I agree with the first quote and get annoyed when people say they want to create the next great version of WoW. However, in most senses the game engine is there (I need to work on the combat and magic system to synch it up to character animations and so on, but the rest is up and running). Perhaps I should habve been more precise on what I meant by 'like Morrowind' ... basically the game engine gives a similar experience as Morrowind (full 3D, chunk world loading, pretty powerful scripting options, etc) ... but ... I am well aware of the limitations of an indie project and as a result I have already done what you suggested and created an episodic game world with movement limited to certain islands with travel opening up as the player (and the world creation!) progresses. In terms of game content the exterior locations for the prologue (very small almost tutorial island) and first chapter are complete, most of the interiors are sorted (the dungeons, houses, but not yet the citadels). On top of this I have a 'prop set' of just short of 200 different objects (buildings, vegetation, books, food, weapons, etc) that can be easily placed using the in game editor. Combine this with the ability to drop in new episodes and locations without any need to significantly change existing data and code (basically I just need to add a boat to allow travel to the new locations) and I am actually pretty well set up with the ability to create a (more constrainted) world as needed.

The real problem (other than my day job taking up more and more time!) is that the character animation is, for me, extremely time consuming and frustratingly boring ... this is where I would really benefit from help. That and the lesser problem of creating original books, scrolls and notes to scatter around the landscape to gradually fill out the back story.

Locrian wrote:
Investing time into learning a well known engine like the Unreal engine might be a good move if you want to expand your team. Its the first engine 3d modelers go to when they want to see their creations in a real time engine. They are already familiar with it, its free for non-commercial games, has sexy shaders and whatnot. Theres also the Source engine. If your game is awesome enough Valve might hire you.


While almost certainly the best approach to get others involved in the project, it is probably a bit late to do this ... while Legends certainly isn't a professional (sexy shaders and all) game engine on a par with the Source engine for example it is a long way beyond a 'I want to build the next MMORPG' project ... the thing that drives me now is the desire to finish something already started and get a game out of the existing game engine ;).

Locrian wrote:
DeveloperX brings up a good point. Though I've always been impressed by your screen shots I have no idea what your project is about.

To be brutally blunt it looks like a generic fantasy game, or a clone of the boring European parts of Morrowind. Pretty engine but not an interesting world. You might have trouble recruiting creative artsy types when there is nothing to invent, just a bunch of standard medieval European stuff that we've all seen a billion times before. Artists want to put their own spin on things. Exercise their "vision" and all that artsy fartsy stuff. I don't know, maybe thats just me since I'm more into the concept art side of things. Modelers might not care as much.


I have to admit that the 'boring European parts of Morrowind' were the bits I liked most so it is perhaps envitable that these would the bits that Legends would most resemble ... what I want to avoid is the stereotypes of Orcs and Elves and so on. Clearly I need to start describing the game world in more detail (especially if I want to get others involved the project), but to give a brief summary here, think the Dark Ages in Europe where all the old Imperial structures are breaking down under internal and external strain. In its place are a series of barbarian factions, splinters of the old system and a religious order trying to impose its views on the world and protect everyone from the evils of old magics. Basically the first chapters drop the player into all of this, sets out the first quests and says 'choose sides'. The first chapters are a fairly gentle introduction with the player being in the civilised and more (normally) stable part of the world, but the idea is to clearly to communicate to the player that something is not right. I will think how can I update the project page here and the website to start describing the game world better.

To give a current status, since writing the first mail I have actually taken some time off ... beyond having some fun creating a quick and easy RTS out of the game engine (really a fun project rather than something serious) I have purposely stayed away from Legends in order to recharge the batteries. This is almost done (I'm at about 90% and starting to think about fixing this or working on that) and I will soon be back at work. First step is to get the character animation (for at least one NPC model) working sufficiently well to allow the combat code to be completed and then tie up the loose ends on the first episodes ... I have had a few ideas on getting some modellers (or more specifically texture artists and animators) involved but I (as you suggested) need to build up the story more partly by improving the website, getting some new screenshots in and probably most critically moving from technical demo movies to game introduction movies ... try to get a few people interested in the story rather than the frame rate.

Thanks for the advice ... much appreciated ... if nothing else it brought my own similar thoughts into sharper focus and helped me appeciate more clearly where I am currently and how I need to map out the path going forward.

Cheers,

Jon.
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