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RampantCoyote
Demon Hunter


Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 546
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: [quote]

And to make up for my happy "oops" before --- another problem with doing a "big" project where you forget what's already been done...

I spent three hours last night updating and improving what turned out to be an obsolete version of a dungeon. So I got to spend another hour merging the changes back together again. D'oh.

Happily, the formerly-obsolete version is now (hopefully) sporting the best of both versions. If I caught them all... But I sure did end up re-doing a lot of work.
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Malignus
Scholar


Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: [quote]

RampantCoyote wrote:
I spent three hours last night updating and improving what turned out to be an obsolete version of a dungeon. So I got to spend another hour merging the changes back together again. D'oh.


I find myself doing that obnoxiously often. Not with the dungeons so much, but with game code. Bugs crop up again months after I've fixed them because, as it turns out, I accidentally copy-pasted old code. It's pretty much the bane of my game development existence.
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RampantCoyote
Demon Hunter


Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 546
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Okay, this question is particularly for Malignus, who is obnoxiously multitalented like so many others on this board who are NOT me, and can do art, music, design, AND code, AND probably juggle while simultaneously solving complex differential equations in their heads, but I'm curious about everyone's take:

How much time do you spend coding, versus testing, content creation, management, and "non-development" tasks (like marketing and business development tasks) for your game?
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Mattias Gustavsson
Mage


Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Royal Leamington Spa, UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:08 pm    Post subject: [quote]

I think I probably spend the least time on coding - writing code is fairly easy, I think. I certainly spend more time on "art" (or at least trying to make Poser stuff to look sort of ok). I find game design to be very very difficult though, and I spend quite a bit of time both studying and practising that area (including the whole story-telling bit). I don't really do any music/marketing/business though - I guess I would if I have any real indie ambitions, but I'm happy to be the dabbling hobbyist :D
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Malignus
Scholar


Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: [quote]

RampantCoyote wrote:
How much time do you spend coding, versus testing, content creation, management, and "non-development" tasks (like marketing and business development tasks) for your game?


Oh, man. I'd love to give you a useful answer to this question, but I'll give you an honest one instead: I have no clue. I've been working on TSoG for so long (and so haphazardly) that it's really hard for me to say. Ah, what the hell. I'll give it a try.

TSoG's game engine took a very, very long time to code, though I don't think it would take me nearly as long to code now if I started over. In fact, I sort of did, and it took only a small fraction of the time to make a combat engine that was markedly better (albeit currently incomplete and devoid of computer AI).

Art takes a long time to make as well, but I've cheated on that front a little to buy myself some time to focus on the other stuff. I've also managed to design things so I can reuse assets a lot, which leaves more time for the content I care most about (the writing).

Writing takes a surprisingly long time. Actually, I take that back. I mean, it does take forever, but it's not surprising that it does. Dialog trees take at least five times as long as regular linear narrative, yet produce the same length of player-experienced written material. Add to that the fact that there are numerous side quests with multiple endings, ten party members you can recruit in the game with their own backstories and involved, optional dialog trees you can explore at headquarters, and you have a good recipe for "oh my God what the hell was I thinking."

Music doesn't take too long, but that's usually because I only sit down to write when I've got an idea--transcribing music from brain to computer usually takes no more than 6 hours from start to completion.

Testing takes some time, but my fans are pretty good about playing the game to death and reporting everything they find, so that takes a lot of the burden off of me. They still miss things, though. If we categorize bug fixing under testing and not under coding, the amount of time I spend on this goes up exponentially. In fact, let's just make bug fixing its own category.

Marketing and promotion takes an obnoxious amount of time to do, and because I spend much more time developing the game than I do promoting it, I feel like I do kind of a half-assed job at promotion. If all I were doing was promotion, there would be some breathtaking TSoG trailers out there right now. Instead, we have this slightly unfortunate thing. And instead of me attending one gaming event ever, I would have been schmoozing conventions for years now.

So, uh, if I had to take a wild guess at how I've allocated my time over the past three years of development, I'd break it down something like this:

bug fixing: 40%
coding: 20%
writing: 20%
art: 10%
marketing: 5%
testing: 4%
music: 1%

That's just an educated guess, though.
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter


Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:32 am    Post subject: [quote]

Malignus wrote:

bug fixing: 40%
coding: 20%
writing: 20%
art: 10%
marketing: 5%
testing: 4%
music: 1%


Interesting... For me it looks more like this:
coding (including bug fixing): 20%
writing: 25%
art: 10%
map design: 10%
testing: 5%
marketing: 0%
music: 5%
game design: 25%

Game design and writing are the two big time sinks, and the two areas where I am most likely to encounter writer's block or massive revisions. Coding takes a lot of time because I enjoy it, so I end up coding a lot of stuff that I don't really need and then spend ages tracking down and fixing all the bugs. Art and music get less time than they deserve because I don't particularly enjoy working on them. Marketing gets zero time because I hate it, which explains why my games sell so poorly.
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Amirai
Lowly Slime


Joined: 20 Oct 2010
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Wow, I can tell I have a lot to learn on the programming front... for me it's like 90% of the time coding/bugfixing. Why in the world did I think tackling an RPG and learning to code at the same time was a good idea?

In my opinion, the art's far easier than the code, Though I suppose that's obvious since I'm an artist first. Maybe I should team up with someone. :/
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AdmiralTofu
Lowly Slime


Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Amirai wrote:
Wow, I can tell I have a lot to learn on the programming front... for me it's like 90% of the time coding/bugfixing. Why in the world did I think tackling an RPG and learning to code at the same time was a good idea?


I'm in the same boat, so I totally know what you're talking about. My current project is actually my first major one, so I've been learning as I go. I'm in my sixth year of development. The upshot, I think, is that having learned by doing, the next project will be faster and easier because I've been there and done it.

(That, and I'm going to re-use a ton of code lol)
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Malignus
Scholar


Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: [quote]

Amirai wrote:
(That, and I'm going to re-use a ton of code lol)


That's the way to do it. Although, if you're like me, by the time it comes time to reuse your engine, you'll be sick of working with its limitations and want to rewrite it anyway. :)


Last edited by Malignus on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PsySal
I wanna be a ballerina!


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:15 pm    Post subject: [quote]

Lately I've been thinking more in terms of artistic limitations. Typically what happens during game dev is I have some great (or eventually it turns out not-that-great) idea and want to put it in the game. However, this often requires some kind of extension to the engine, which I then tackle. This takes a lot of time.

Another way of building games, though, is to stick to a smaller set of features and work them to death. An obvious example is vvvvvv but actually there are many more. In particular, for RPGs if you look at DQ1 or many early RPGs they actually had simple-ish systems in place (think of the FF1 dialogue system)-- but they worked them to death.

Anyhow, that's where I'm trying to move. After this project =)
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject: [quote]

I got stuck on the 2D MMORPG thing from back when ElvenProgrammer came here to ask for help with The Mana World. These days I'm in the process of rewriting the client on top of Qt and QML (JavaScript based), which makes it possible to enhance the UI quite a bit and will also allow it to be playable on mobile phones.

I don't develop the entire game though, there's other people developing content, so I basically do only C++ and QML programming. I still dream of once also doing some amazing art or other content, but I already don't have enough time for doing all the programming, so I wonder if I'll ever get around to that.

I also dream of once doing this full time, but so far I have no idea how to make money while still keeping with the spirit of free software, and I don't know anything about setting up a business either. So for now I'll stick with my current job.
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