[mandrake@work]

I'm thinking about hammering out a small, maybe 10-15 hour (of gameplay) RPG. It's basicly going to be a "quirky" rpg (much like Danse Macabre was/is going to be when I get the last tunes from Xmark) (ie: not traditional fantasy, think "Persona") with a focus on strange elements, weird characters, and a Twin Peaks like plot. The game will be more puzzle solving and plot (really heavy focus on the plot) than combat (expect very few random encounters).

The basic "feel" to the game will be a sort of darker cyberpunk dystopia with a lot of dreamlike reality thrown in. Sort of like what William Burroughs did with Naked lunch and City of the Red Night, or what Philip K. Dick did with his later novels. So, yeah, dark mood, etc.

How the spell system will work will be like this:
In the game, there are certain objects that are enchanted with the essance of dead gods. Dieties no one beleives in anymore. For each "type of object" their is a shaman, ie: one who can access the god's spirit which is trapped within the object and use it to call on spells.

The objects are these:
dolls
tarot cards
masks

And three diffrent types of shamans to use each object. So, a Oungan would be able to use dolls, a Pythea will be able to use masks, and a Chovexam would be able to use tarot cards.

Now, to use one of these objects in battle (or outside for healing), the character needs to equip the appropriate item (liek a doll for a Oungan, etc). When a mystical item is equiped, diffrent spell choices come up in combat. Each item will have diffrent powers according to the arcana it is apart of. For example, if you wanted a character who was a Pythea (able to wear the masks) have healing magic, she would wear a mask of the Arcana of Astarte. When you equip it, healing abilities are given. If you un-equip it, they no longer exist.

so, what do you guys think? Nifty or not?

[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

     Very nifty; so much so, in fact, that I really don't have any substantial advice to give. A question, though: would the shamans be particularly magical in themselves, or are they more like channels? Not relevant to gameplay, but makes a big difference thematically.
     An idea, too: I've been told of a Voodoo ritual (does this contravene the anti-religion guidelines? Hmm... heh heh) in which the ritualist exhumes a body, opens the stomach, stuffs it to bursting with dolls representing people he wants to harm, and then the body is re-intered. I seem to remember a funeral-director having gone to jail down south recently for just this same practice. Anyway, if you want creepy, I think this qualifies. Only problem is finding a plausible way to get and explain to the PC that one of those magic dollies is in there; but I'll leave that to you, if you choose.
     Honestly, I really like this system, and I can't even quite explain why, which is the best kind of liking, really.

[Mandrake]

That's not a voodoo (or rather voodoun) ritual I've ever heard of....mainly because the voodoun religion very rarely uses any mystical dolls, the vodoo doll being more of a myth. Which is why I choose to name the doll-user a Oungan, which is a vodoo shaman....kind of a tongue in cheek joke of sorts. Anyway, The shamans have not actual acess to magic, tehy are not a channel. What they do is communicate with the dead god, and each "artifact" takes diffrent forms of communication.

Think of it this way, hwo do people of most modern religions get what they want from their deity? They communicate to it, they ask for something. Either it's through ritual or prayer, teh indivudual is niether a vessel nor a catalyst. He performs the ritual in order to get what he wants, but he himself has no control. The god/gods/godess are not at his will to do what he wants. this of course contradicts the western esotoric tradition which beleives that gods dwell inside of us, and we are the controlling catalyst....but that's not something in this game.

In this game, the user asks the god for help, does not control them. One of the ideas I've got is that you have to appease the god daily (through a ritual of sorts, feeding it incense, whatever...you will hvae a to build a shrine and etc), and if the god (dead or otherwise....since you are asking it for help) is not "happy" then it will no longer do magic for you.

The intersting part is, the more you "appease the god", the more the god/godess becomes linked to the artifact. In the end, a god that has been thoughouly appeased will actually become teh artifact, and that will becoem the god incarnate. Which will be cool in the game, so like when someone uses a doll of Ghide Samedhi, the God of death will literally appear to help. Or if character puts on mask that has become the god itself, then the character wearing the mask will literally transform into the god/godess. The same with the tarot cards. The images will come to life and talk/etc.

The main reason for this is that when people stopped beleiving in these gods tehy became weakened. The Dark God Yzin (who had followers and still does), used their weakened state to trap them in these artifacts. By worshipping the gods, you begin to give them back their power and they become stronger and stronger yet.

[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

     Alright, so I don't know voodoo from my elbow. I'll see if I can't maybe find my source, so I can at least put someone else's "sure"s behind all my "maybe"s.
     So, the items (and attendant gods) "level up" with devotion? That's nice. Will there be quests involving trying to convince NPCs to revere an item, sort of like a tribal-fetish (forgive the patronizing western bourgeois terminology; I don't know quite how to put it.) ? Because that would be cool.
     Also, I highly recommend that you make certain gods disfavour certain actions/types of action, rather than simply asking for a sort of "positive" devotion. Praying etc., is easy, particularly when it only takes you (the player) a second. But if their devotion requires the (willing) deprivation of something to which they've become accustomed, then I think they'll have a better idea of what's required. It's more of a sacrifice. Of course, you might not want to go in this direction; it's your call.

[Mandrake]

well it depends on the god's personality :)

Usually the "good gods" ie: dieties involved in healing magick's, charm's, etc, will only require a sacrifice of insence and that you build them an alter (which the player can personalise)....but darker gods with more powerfull and voilent magick will require great sacrifice. Since it's a plot based RPG, then this will, of course play into the actual plot. At first the dark gods might require something small, liek a gift of the victom's own blood....but near the end of the game, they will get greedy and demand a human sacrifice.

BTW, read your spell system below just now, it's a pretty cool idea. Not too much diffrent then mine, but more involving spirits rather than gods.

The best part is, if you don't appease the god often enough, it will at first just take away certain spells. If you do it for long enough, they will leave you alltogether, forcing you to use another diety or whatever.

[Ironshanks]

Additionally, you could have certain gods demmand that you don't use certain items, or such.

Will these gods each have different cultural bases? You've already mentioned the vodoo reference, I'm curious about the masks and tarot cards, will they be similar?
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That's not a broken link, it's a PICTURE of a broken link. It's really very conceptual.

[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

     I was writing a P&P RPG once in which the PC played someone who had contracted with a demon, to get all sorts of powers and such. It was imperative that, to maintain those powers, he have a good relationship with the demon; he had to do things the demon liked, not do things he didn't, worship him, etc.
     In return for this, the PC acquired a sort of spiritual currency with that demon, which I'll unimaginatively call MP here. MP was consumed whenever the demon's powers were used; essentially, it was a trade in services. MP could also be used to "buy" additional powers. When you do good things, you get more MP; when you do bad things, you get fewer.
     This is all very mechanistic and dry, I know, but I'm just trying to describe the system, not the world in which it's set. Just let me assure you that it wasn't quite so dryly used. Anyway, I found it an excellent system with a lot of potential, and perhaps most importantly, an extremely easy one to implement. It also adds the interesting gameplay mechanic of: do you keep your MP for magic, or do you spend it to gain more and more powerful spells? It's sort of like a combination EXP/MP in that regard.
     It doesn't preclude, of course, specific plot-driven stuff like "kill such-and-such a person and I'll give you such-and-such a power."
     But I entirely understand if you want to get away from the whole "magic meter" schtick. If you're looking to make this game more about plot than game-play, than you probably wouldn't want a system like this.

               ---- EDIT ----
     Oh, sorry, just in case it wasn't clear, I was mentioning the above as an idea of something you could do for your game; it wasn't just a "look at the cool system I'm using" thing.

[DarkDread]

That's a cool idea... though I'd suggest, maybe have a way to permanently learn spells (perhaps, by using them often?)... or at the very least, allow the player to 'create' new dolls/masks/whatever from the old ones, and 'fuse' the different spells together.

For example, lets say you've got a mask with cure/fire/thunder and another one with bio/demi/death (yeah, cliche spells, but they're just examples)... you can fuse the two if you want, but you will lose one of those spells... randomly, if you have a low level character doing the fusing, or, you can pick which spell to drop, if your character is very proficient with fusing. The more proficient they are, the less spells they have to drop, and the more spells they can choose from the available ones to drop. So, lets say, a character with fuse ability level 2, can fuse two masks (with 3 spells each) into one mask, with 4 spells total... and will randomly loose two of the spells... but a fuse ability level 10 character, will loose only 1 spell when fusing, and they'll be able to choose out of all 6 of the spells which one to drop, whereas, say, a level 8 fuse ability, they could only choose out of the 4 strongest spells, which one to drop.

Does that make sense? ...probably just complicates things, heh.
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"Goth is a way for ugly people to be interesting."

[Nodtveidt]

somewhat off-topic, but Mandrake brought up the subject of healing magicks...

Generally speaking, healing magick is a neutral energy...remember that both the forces of light and the forces of darkness can call upon healing magicks. I know a lot of stories use this power as white, but it is grey in reality. I have always used it in my stories as a neutral power just for the reason that both sides can use it.

-nek
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace

[Ironshanks]

That's not always true. I've seen a lot of situations where evil characters can't heal themselves...or where healing actually harms evil creatures.
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That's not a broken link, it's a PICTURE of a broken link. It's really very conceptual.

[Nodtveidt]

if the evils can't heal themselves, it's usually cause they lack the power to do so...and typically, healing spells are meant to damage the undead, not the evil. How is an evil entity to fix their wounds? By healing, of course...hehehe :) of course, it's all individual...I'm just stating the logical method.

-nek
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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows. - wallace

[Ironshanks]

Well yeah, in the usual case it probably would be a neutral power.
_________________
That's not a broken link, it's a PICTURE of a broken link. It's really very conceptual.

[mandrake@home]

mandrake here-

it depends on the view of evil, per se. For example, in western society death itself is considered evil, and life good. being that in western society the concept of dualism (ie: polar oppisates) exist, then "evil" magic would be anti-life, or harm magic. Since the polar oppisates exist, evil cannot use non-death magic (ie: healing or life bringing magic). If you beleive in ANY western ideas (cough yes, satanism), then you have to beleive by the rules of it's foundation, and then you can see how "evil" magic cannot be heal magic.

But, if you go the eastern route, polaraties are often veiwed as being the same thing. Take Kali for example, she is the life giver and the death bringer. Someone dealing in death magic could just as easily, in eastern thought, deal in life magic, since the forces are not parellel polaraties but symboitic qualities with the same source.

btw- i've decided to drop masks and cards, and just stick with doll based magic. I've also decided to drop the vodoo ritualistic implementations, and go with a classical western esotoric occult concepts. so um, yeah.

DD- i like the ideas, but the beleif system (ie: praying to your god will give you speels, missing a prayer taking them away) is a main part of the game's plot :)

[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

     Why are you only using dolls? I liked the idea of the three different item types, each unique to its own shaman. You could also have NPC shamans who can access (or whatever) different types of item (a clothing-shaman would be interesting, or the "magic vinyl record shaman").
     I really like the idea of having to sacrifice a person to acquire certain magic, particularly if that person is a specific NPC. Particularly, particularly if that NPC is an NPC to whom PC has grown very attached. Particularly, particularly, particularly if that sacrifice is optional; i.e., you don't have to learn that magic and make that sacrifice if you don't want to. I love the idea of the PC having to choose between sacrificing someone for whom he cares deeply, so that he can get that super-powerful last spell, between that and not having the power to take out the last boss, and thereby dooming the world to whatever ill you happen to decide will befall it should the hero not be heroic enough to prevail. I love it. Do it. Please?

[Mandrake]