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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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 Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1. The graphics don't take up a huge amount of space (tilesets can be relatively small) |
I guess it depends on what sort of system you are writing the game for. If you're going for a 386 with 640KB (which has to be shared with everything else) then sure. If you're going for a Pentium with 256MB+ RAM I don't think size matters as much.
| Quote: | | 2. Collision detection and the like are easier to program |
I'll agree with you there, but only if you're talking on a tile-by-tile basis (something like Civilization does) it is much easier. If you were going to do collision detection like any of the action RPGs do, then you've still got to go down to pixel-level collision testing anyway.
| Quote: | | 3. It's not really that hard to write a p*p scroller... ;) |
Yeah I know, but programming the tools for level editors can take a little while to do. But then you can argue that you can use a premade map editor, in which case- yeah youre right.
| Quote: | | but like you said, it's kind of a matter of opinion. |
If it wasn't for a difference of opinion I'd hate to think how boring and repeditively games would become.
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DeveloperX
202192397
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 1626
Location: Decatur, IL, USA
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Ninkazu
Demon Hunter
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 945
Location: Location:
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 3:08 am Post subject: |
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But pointed out earlier is the fact that we don't need to worry about space limits! (Which is kind of sad if you think about it) Collision can still be bounding box, and even more accurate than in a tile*tile engine, if you code it right, and pixel*pixel tile engines are easy, but... how is easy better?
I just scrolled down and saw there was another page (silly me) and this was addressed, but that's what I have to say about that.
Yup yup yup... -thinks about Baldur's Gate and cries at his insuperiority-
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | if you code it right, and pixel*pixel tile engines are easy, but... how is easy better? |
Easy is better because it gives you more time to concentrate on the imporant things. The choice between tile engine (if coded properly) will have no impact whatsoever on the gameplay. So why waste time coding a tile engine, and a map editor, spend hours chopping up graphics into 16x16 tiles and then reassembling them again later when you can just use photoshop to make up the map save it as a bitmap.
When you think about the time it takes to code a functional map editor and split all your art into tiles, reassemble it all and write the tile engine wouldn't it just be better to slap a huge bitmap down when ultimately its not going to effect the players game experience at all.
The only reason I can really see as to why people would want to stick with tile-based RPG engines is because they are well documented and its easy to learn when youre beginning out because of the abundance of tutorials out there.
** AMENDMENT **
On second thoughts, there is one obvious advantage to a tile engine that I thought of. Animation. Animating background tiles things like shorelines is a lot easier in a tile engine. In a non tile engine you could either resort to some form of color cycling/pallete scrolling or you could have smaller animted images overlaid on top of the larger static one. Shrugs. Dont you hate it when you think out loud?
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
Last edited by twinsen on Fri May 23, 2003 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 4:27 am Post subject: |
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As a side note- maybe we should start a trend and if anyones got time they should write a tutorial on developing non-tile based RPGs :)
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When you think about the time it takes to code a functional map editor and split all your art into tiles, reassemble it all and write the tile engine wouldn't it just be better to slap a huge bitmap down when ultimately its not going to effect the players game experience at all. |
If you're going to do a decent job of detail/quality it will take every bit as much work to assemble the map in photoshop. In fact, it will probably take more work because almost any map will have a good deal of repetition, which is easier to accomplish with a map editor. And if your map doesn't have any repetition, it is certainly going to take forever to draw out.
The whole idea behind a tile-based engine is to be able to create a plethora of images that are repetitive in detail yet unique in structure.
And using the exact method you described, one wouldnt even be able to allow objects to weave in front of and behind various elements of the map. To me, thats a pretty big impact on gameplay.
I'm interested in how a non-tiled system would create a detailed seacoast surrounding a continent on the overworld? Seems to me one would have to create a 2000x2000-odd-pixel unique bitmap, or perhaps use vectors, which would look pretty shoddy. Many natural features contain repetitive details that are, however, quite easy to accomplish using a tile-based system.
All of these points about the benefits of non-tiled maps have their merits, but there also ARE benefits to a tile-based system beyond the small size and simplicity of implementation. Your conversation seemed to be glossing over these many benefits.
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And using the exact method you described, one wouldnt even be able to allow objects to weave in front of and behind various elements of the map. To me, thats a pretty big impact on gameplay |
Yes, you can still do that, you just use different image layers. You blit the background image first, then put all the objects and characters, then you could blit a transparent bitmap with the trees and like.
Both systems do have their merits and problems, as with any program its just a matter of weighing it all up and finding the best solution for the problem at hand.
And yes, naturally occuring phenomena (excuse spelling, its friday at work and we've been hitting the wine in the last hour) are repeditive, but even so, there are subtle differences, I guess it just depends on the level of realism you want to depict, if you want photo quality graphics then a tile engine isn't really going to work. But then again who wants a photo quality 2D RPG, it would just look odd.
Oh well, time to go back to my managers office before the grog gets warm.
Catchyas.
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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ThousandKnives
Wandering Minstrel
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 147
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, you can still do that, you just use different image layers. You blit the background image first, then put all the objects and characters, then you could blit a transparent bitmap with the trees and like. |
That's what I would do, but thats not what you described, you simply said that the map should be drawn up directly in photoshop, which is very different from drawing up a background in photoshop and pasting objects on top of it. So, I was just responding to what you had described. Thats ok though.
If you're going to be making such a large number of graphics as objects (trees, mountains, houses, etc...) so that you can walk behind them, than you pretty much ARE splitting everything up into tiles (bigger tiles perhaps, but tiles nonetheless). The fact that they dont have to be laid out in a grid is still an advantage, I suppose, but a grid keeps a sense of order to things that is a plus, I think. I think you're going to find yourself spacing things at certain distances anyway to ensure player movement or restriction, and that things dont get too close together or far apart visually.
And while you have an interesting point about being able to make everything unique and thus "realistic", I sorta addressed that already. I mean, if it takes me 4 hours just to draw up a set of generic mountain graphics, how many hours will it take me to draw up a chain of mountains if every mountain is going to be unique? How long will it take to draw a forest of unique trees? The very idea is laughable, if you ask me.
And yeah, the bottom line is I happen to think all that work would be for naught since the game would probably look kinda dumb in the end. RPG tile blocks are just like big lucious pixels, and I LOVES my pixels. hehe
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mandrake@happyland
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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As a side note- maybe we should start a trend and if anyones got time they should write a tutorial on developing non-tile based RPGs :)
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I did that once, and got lynched. People uproared, got angry, adn they still do when I promote the beneifits of non-tilemaps. I'm liking RPGDX more and more lately....more people using my style o'coding. heh.
The only place I wouldn't use a non-tile map engine stick with a tile map one is with arcade/action games. Like a run and jump platformer. The size of the maps would just be too large to be feasible memory wise.
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Sirocco
Mage
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 9:09 pm Post subject: Important considerations |
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Easy is better because it gives you more time to concentrate on the imporant things.
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Keep that thought on hand, but temper it with the realization that you cannot improve your skills without taking on challenges. That's one of the main reasons I stick with 8bpp video modes -- it continually forces me to adapt to my current (graphic) situation and come up with creative techniques to mimic effects that would normally only be attempted in high color. Had I taken the easy road years ago, my skills as a programmer would be much less developed ;)
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entivore
Bjørn's Arctic Bitch of the Frozen North
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 86
Location: michigan, usa
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2003 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I guess it depends on what sort of system you are writing the game for. If you're going for a 386 with 640KB (which has to be shared with everything else) then sure. If you're going for a Pentium with 256MB+ RAM I don't think size matters as much. |
It might not matter as much, but it still matters. People aren't going to want big chunks of their memory used up for simple things, and they aren't going to want to spend extra time downloading larger files. With a giant bitmap, each pixel needs to be stored, unless you use some form of compression. But if you are going to do that, why not use tiles? They are both compression and an organization tool. If you're going to do a really hi-tech game with lots of detail or 3d or something, I can understand it.
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2003 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Keep that thought on hand, but temper it with the realization that you cannot improve your skills without taking on challenges. That's one of the main reasons I stick with 8bpp video modes -- it continually forces me to adapt to my current (graphic) situation and come up with creative techniques to mimic effects that would normally only be attempted in high color. Had I taken the easy road years ago, my skills as a programmer would be much less developed ;) |
Yeah, I can agree with you on that- you do need to start with the basics. I kinda forget that at times, I mean theres nothing to using OpenGL and throwing together a 3D world these days. But yes, I did learn a lot from my old DOS days in 320x200x8bpp when you had to actually setup your own 3D projetion systems rather than just rely on some pretty little API to do it for you.
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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twinsen
Stephen Hawking
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 242
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2003 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It might not matter as much, but it still matters. People aren't going to want big chunks of their memory used up for simple things, and they aren't going to want to spend extra time downloading larger files. With a giant bitmap, each pixel needs to be stored, unless you use some form of compression. But if you are going to do that, why not use tiles? They are both compression and an organization tool. If you're going to do a really hi-tech game with lots of detail or 3d or something, I can understand it. |
Yes memory management is important, but I don't think the average joe user is going to care how their memory is used. You can pretty much assume a minimum of 128MB these days, and the minimum hard drive size is around 40GB, which leaves you with a hell of a lot of virtual memory (if you want to go that way).
I'm not saying no to tile engines, they have their place, but I just dont think that people should entirely disregard non-tile based engines, they have their merits as well.
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Lovely girls & great prices always available at CLUB 859, 859 Glenhunly Road, Caulfield, Open 10am till late 7 days. +61-3-9523-8555. (Sorry, it was in front of me in the newspaper, I just had to use it as a signature!)
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whitedoor
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2003 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Of course there is no real reason why you have to divide up your tree in to tiny pieces just becuase you are using a tile engine ;) in most of my tile engines I allowed tiles of any size. And allowed a x,y offset for each layer of tiles.
The primary advange of tile engines has been in my mind is that they make it easy to lay your map out and align tiles next to each other. Tile reuse 'with in reason' is also a plus. Its also easy to figure out what are the visible tiles, so tilemaps are reasonably optimal in terms of drawing.
not to say that there is anything wrong with non-tilemaps... in fact.. over the last few months.. I've been sort of mulling it over and I think maybe tilemaps aren't the best option of the two.
Given a pixel-by-pixel scrolling engine with sprites that move pixel-by-pixel, I already have to have some method of storing, sorting, and culling the non visible sprites. So why not go the whole hog and do it for the map too? (storing the map as a list of sprites with [x,y]) In terms of layout its easy enough to set up a user-defined grid size with some kind of... snap-to feature. So I could end up with all the advanges of a tile engine, and none of the disadvanges.
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