[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

It's rather out of fashion now, but do you remember playing RPGs in which you had to map out the levels using graph paper, or get hopelessly lost? What are your thoughts on this? There is a reason why it's hardly done anymore: it was rather annoying; but at the same time it seemed somehow to increase the feeling of exploration.

[Mandrake]

well I think it's passe now because games have evolved to follow the whole standard created by finalFantasy, that is plot over exploration. Hell, even in diablo games exploration is supposably primary, and yet dungean-wise it's kind of, well, lame.

That's why Nethack still rocks.
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[Rainer Deyke]

I have some very fond memories of mapping out Quest for Glory and the gold box AD&D games. That said, I prefer a more sophisticated and less tedious approach to exploration. Straight mazes have been done and overdone.

I am currently replaying Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, which doesn't require the player to draw maps, yet has a stronger exploration focus than just about any other game I've played. Not that chopping down every bush in the world is any less tedious.


I think the real key to a satisfying exploration experience is to create a world that's worth exploring. Put in lots of detail. Avoid excessive repetition. Hide lots of treasures. Don't punish explorers by hiding booby traps.

[BigManJones]

Nethack - I've never been able to live past the second level in that game. Very frustrating.

Automapping is the way to go. In the Avernum games the automap is how you see the results of the 'farsight' spell.

[Rainer Deyke]

I'm not a big fan of automapping. It works, but it tends to encourage the "look for black spots on the map" method of exploration, which is not just tedious but also silly.

Here's what I would like to see map-wise:

• Key locations are relatively easy to find. To get from point A to point B, just take the road. The player shouldn't have to visit every location on the map just to find the way from this village to that village.
  
• If the game is large enough to need a map, give the player a map. The player doesn't have to visit the capitol to know where the capitol is. The map should not be overly detailed, but it should keep the player from getting hopelessly lost.
  
• It the player finds points of interest, he can mark them on the map. Alternately, points of interest are automatically marked. That's "points of interest", not "every damn tree in the forest".
  
• No automapping except as stated above. It's not necessary, and it just encourages degenerate gameplay.
  

[LeoDraco]

[Sirocco]

[Mandrake]

well, when I was talking before (in the plot vs exploration thread) and said that I think smaller works better in exploration based games. you get less repetition, and the ability to create more detail. In larger worlds, the detail gets lost far too easily, and the game becomes more of the same. I think the Diablo style games are very much like this in that aspect.

And yet for some reson rogue style games keep me exploring....I don't know what it is about these games....but something just makes it still interesting in some aspect. Even with all the repetition.
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[Bjorn]

I used to play Solstice on the NES, which was more of a puzzle game than an RPG. The only screenshots I've found are from the ending sequence. The world consisted of many rectangular rooms with different colors and stuff in it. There was a map but that only showed how the rooms were connected (not what was in them) and it was lost on game over. Therefor I constructed my own map on paper, and this quite added to the gameplay while it felt like cheating a bit at the same time.

Sadly, I never finished the game and finding the above URL was the first time I saw the ending.

[Sirocco]

Eh... I had heard there was a predecessor to Equinox, but had never actually seen it. Gameplay looks the same :(

.

[Mandrake]

yeah solstice is kind of like the equinix prequel, except solstice only has one dungena, and you play a cool looking wizard rather than some odd looking 1000 arabian nights dude.

Solstice was a lot of fun. And one of the few games that was done by a British game dev company. Was a lot of fun. More fun the Equinox anyway.
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[ThousandKnives]

solstice = music by Tim Follin = excellent
equinox = delayed over and over and over again = disappointment

I used to always draw up maps. I don't have to much anymore but I do have to write notes about suspicious things in places given how often you must return with better stuff later on. I don't like having to juggle all that in my head, but I do like having to take notes hehe.

Games I still have old maps for:
Crystalis
Dragon Warrior 3
Marvelous
Mystic Arc
Final Fantasy Legend 1

Usually I only have to resort to maps if a game has large dungeons with monotonous graphics, or special "puzzle" maps. I never felt serious enough about my chances of beating Solstice to get into maps and whatnot. That game was ridiculous. Games like DW1 and FF1 I would probably have mapped if Nintendo Power hadn't done it for me. Those were the days.

[Jihgfed Pumpkinhead]

The main problem with NetHack, I found, was that all the cool classes sucked, and therefore, I, too, never got past the second level (because I refused to be a lame Warrior when I could be a camera-flashing, credit-card-wielding Tourist).

That's a very nice list, Rainer, and I pretty much agree.

I don't much care for manual mapping myself: it seems more suited to table-top RPGs. I was just curious what everyone thought of it. Thanks for the replies.

[LeoDraco]

While I will occasionally take notes for various games I play, I have found that the quintessential game series where note-taking is practically a requirement is the Myst series. While they are more puzzle games, rather than RPGs, there's usually a lot of data about the puzzles that needs to be kept track of. Not to mention that some of the ages can actually be quite confusing to run around in. (I remember the rocket-ship age from the original Myst: you could map part of that level, as a way to pass it.)
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[pabarry]

The only time I make manual maps is when I play on some MUD.

I did however create a manual map when playing 'The Legend of Zelda'. Without my map I got lost quite often.