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Happy
JonA's American snack pack
Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 200
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 Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| BigManJones wrote: | | Quote: | | you shouldn't say something like "As a programming language, PHP is an abomination, but as a tool for dynamic web pages, it's pretty slick." without saying that it's your opinion. |
Silly me, I assumed it WAS his opinion.
For that matter, you can use LUA for scripting web pages too, but no one has mentioned it. I personally, and this is my opinion, despise any language were all variables are global by default. But thats just my opinion. |
Wow, learning is fun! DID YOU KNOW you can USE any LANGUAGE (albeit, as CGI) for scripting web PAGES too?!?! Even bash and csh, can be used!
Also, in PHP, you actually have to explicitly state a variable is global. But that's fine as it's even got pass by reference!
That being said, I assume you only like Java. UNLESS IM TO UNDRESTAND JAVA HAS GLOBAL VARAIBELS ALSO!!!!!!!11
(Sorry XMark. I'll make it up to you later, promise. *uNF* (Remember: PHP+XML=GOD))
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| LeoDraco wrote: | | And I'm saying that you are unfairly catagorizing the language as useless for large projects, simply because you don't care for it. |
I "don't care for it" because it is a messy language and therefore unsuitable for large projects.
| Quote: | | Writing large projects in PHP isn't difficult to do. In your original message, you implied that PHP wasn't good for large scale projects; you also implied that it wasn't a very good language. |
I didn't imply it, I explicitly stated it.
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | As a programming language, PHP is an abomination, but as a tool for dynamic web pages, it's pretty slick. |
And I stand by that statement.
| Quote: | | All of these things are bigoted opinions. |
They are opinions. Looks like you have trouble dealing with people who have different opinions than you.
| Happy wrote: | | Again, PHP is a scripting language. It's primarily used as a hypertext preprocessor. |
What part of "but as a tool for dynamic web pages, it's pretty slick" did you not understand? PHP is useful for its intended purpose. It's not so hot when you try to use it for more complex stuff.
| Happy wrote: | | If PHP is messy, then I don't know what's clean. |
Python. C. Scheme. Assembly. Unlambda. Java. Clean. Smalltalk.
You've got to be kidding.
| Quote: | | Heh. Maybe you should RTFM. |
Would you believe that I actually did that, instead of just trying out stuff at random?
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, I use tables for the positioning as well. But that's just because I've never tried the CSS-only way and because it's a bit more reliable. Even today I've been converting a few tables on the RPGDX main site to DIV tags and CSS markup though, but not updated yet.
Right now I'd like to see XMark return, saying something like "thanks for all the good advice, now I can put a simple menu in each of my simple pages", and have this discussion closed. Just please stop this pointless debate.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | I "don't care for it" because it is a messy language and therefore unsuitable for large projects. |
And I hold that it isn't a messy language. Sure, I wouldn't use it to do a 3d game, but that isn't its intended purpose. You come off as attacking its ability to do its intended purpose.
| Quote: | | They are opinions. Looks like you have trouble dealing with people who have different opinions than you. |
No, I have problems with people who state opinions as fact. You have not once given examples of how PHP is "messy", nor examples of a complicated project that shouldn't be attempted with it. (Whereas I have given an example of a complicated project (such as a fora system along the lines of phpBB or my own) done in PHP.)
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| LeoDraco wrote: | | No, I have problems with people who state opinions as fact. |
At this point you are really pissing me off. You give some advice, obviously based on personal opinion. I give some advice of my own, also based on personal opinion. You accuse me of stating my opinion as fact, when you did the exact same thing I did. 99% of what's on this message board is opinion anyway.
| Quote: | | You have not once given examples of how PHP is "messy", |
I wasn't aware that I am only allowed to state opinions if I am willing to explain them in depth. But if you want examples, you shall have them.
1. Each unknown identifier is implictly a constant with a value equal to a string that contains the identifier. Sounds like a time bomb waiting to go off.
2. $array[0] does not necessarily access the first element of an array that is indexed with consequutive non-negative integers, but most of the time it does. Another time bomb waiting to go off.
3. $array['bob'] and $array['fred'] are different elements of the same array. $array["08"] and $array["8"] are the same array element, even though "08" and "8" are clearly distinct strings.
4. "0" == false. This is a change from a previous version of the language, which means it can break a program that's already working.
5. From the manual: "You can pass any builtin or user defined function with the exception of...". Yippee.
6. Crappy error handling.
7. In general, PHP is far too forgiving of programmer errors and questionable practices.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | At this point you are really pissing me off. |
I'm sorry your majesty. I didn't realize it was sinful to piss you off.
| Quote: | | You give some advice, obviously based on personal opinion. I give some advice of my own, also based on personal opinion. You accuse me of stating my opinion as fact, when you did the exact same thing I did. |
The difference being that my opinion was obviously opinion. Yours wasn't.
| Quote: | | I wasn't aware that I am only allowed to state opinions if I am willing to explain them in depth. |
Post flame-bait, and that's what you get.
| Quote: | | But if you want examples, you shall have them. |
Good, we're finally getting somewhere.
| Quote: | | 1. Each unknown identifier is implictly a constant with a value equal to a string that contains the identifier. Sounds like a time bomb waiting to go off. |
Who the fuck uses an indentifier prior to checking to see if it has been set or not? Function isset() is provided for exactly that purpose. Learn to fucking program.
| Quote: | | 2. $array[0] does not necessarily access the first element of an array that is indexed with consequutive non-negative integers, but most of the time it does. Another time bomb waiting to go off. |
That's due to the predictable way that arrays are stored in PHP. The array in PHP is far more equivalent to a mapping, rather than a C-style array. Again, careful programming on your part would prevent an error like that ever becoming a problem.
| Quote: | | 3. $array['bob'] and $array['fred'] are different elements of the same array. $array["08"] and $array["8"] are the same array element, even though "08" and "8" are clearly distinct strings. |
Strings are first evaluated to integer values (if the context requires it). This is a predictable occurance. Why the fuck you'd want to address two different strings that look the same, I don't know, but there are acceptible ways around it.
| Quote: | | 4. "0" == false. This is a change from a previous version of the language, which means it can break a program that's already working. |
You're bitching about 0 being false? As opposed to what? Who the fuck would program under the assumption that 0 is anything but false? Much of C legacy code (as well as C++ code, for that matter) uses 0 as a false value. How is that a problem?
| Quote: | | 5. From the manual: "You can pass any builtin or user defined function with the exception of...". Yippee. |
How is that messy?
| Quote: | | 6. Crappy error handling. |
There are ways around that. There are always ways around that. Try learning how to fucking code properly.
| Quote: | | 7. In general, PHP is far too forgiving of programmer errors and questionable practices. |
Give an example.
In my opinion, a language is as messy as the programmer who codes in it. If you're complaining about documented issues in PHP, that doesn't say much about your coding prowess.
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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Rainer Deyke
Demon Hunter
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 672
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| LeoDraco wrote: | | I'm sorry your majesty. I didn't realize it was sinful to piss you off. |
Come back when you can discuss something without being insulting. Until then, this discussion is over.
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | Come back when you can discuss something without being insulting. Until then, this discussion is over. |
Okay. Sure. Whatever you wish. *bows kowtows as exits*
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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XMark
Guitar playin' black mage
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 870
Location: New Westminster, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the help, guys!
Heh, I was confused when I was trying to learn PHP because the tutorials I was looking up went into detail on how to start up your own PHP server and stuff. So, RPGDX has PHP and MySQL up and running already?
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Mark Hall
Abstract Productions
I PLAYS THE MUSIC THAT MAKES THE PEOPLES FALL DOWN!
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LeoDraco
Demon Hunter
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Location: Riverside, South Cali
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| XMark wrote: | | Heh, I was confused when I was trying to learn PHP because the tutorials I was looking up went into detail on how to start up your own PHP server and stuff. So, RPGDX has PHP and MySQL up and running already? |
You only need to know how to set up the PHP binary if you want PHP support on your own HTTP daemon. Which, presuming that you aren't doing SysAdmin stuff, or that you aren't running a pirate file hosting service off of your home box, you shouldn't have to worry about.
And yeah: RPGDX would be set up that way.
PHP has an alright tutorial on how to use PHP. The online documentation is practically the definitive resource for looking up language features. There's also a a semi-good site (PHPBuilder) that has a PHP code library.
The beauty of PHP is that it is integrated right into the HTML file. For example:
| Code: |
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<body>
<?php echo "Hello world!" ?>
</body>
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Would put the text, "Hello world!" into the HTML file. It's very simple to use.
Now, there are some cases where you actually need to specify where the PHP binary is located (on the server); I'm supposing that RPGDX isn't set up like that, but it's something that you should be aware of. (My department website, for instance, requires that a shebang path be included as the first line of any PHP file.)
The PHP tag can be used anywhere within an HTML file; you are not limited to where it can go. (This is due, mainly, because the PHP file is processed on the server, prior to the generated file being sent to the browser. As such, you cannot have "dynamic" PHP execution; there are, naturally, ways around this, but you won't have something that is "real time", like a client-side script language (such as JavaScript).)
If you have any other problems with PHP, just ask.
*shameless plug* My website uses PHP extensively. Contrary to some opinions that exist around here, it's a rather good testament to what can be done with PHP. (Heh. Admittedly, not perfect. Far from. But still.)
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"...LeoDraco is a pompus git..." -- Mandrake
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Happy
JonA's American snack pack
Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:05 am Post subject: |
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XMark, you little devil. I had this nice rant planned out (posted below) and stuff. Ah well. Were the links helpful at all? It's a lot of reading but it's worth it.
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Rainer Deyke: Reading through the thread, I actually found your posts more insulting than Leo's. I know the debate wasn't called for, so I don't want to start a new one. I'm just stating my opinion.
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | What part of "but as a tool for dynamic web pages, it's pretty slick" did you not understand? |
None. It was the part of the statement before that I didn't understand (The "As a programming language, PHP is an abomination" part.). At the time I assumed you meant "scripting language" when you said "programming language", as, to my knowledge, PHP cannot be compiled to run natively (without a VM).
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | You've got to be kidding. |
It's called sarcasm.
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | Would you believe that I actually did that, instead of just trying out stuff at random? |
Yeah. Sorry, I assumed you weren't using Internet Explorer.
| Rainer Deyke wrote: | | I didn't imply it, I explicitly stated it. |
Actually explicitly stating it would have been something like:
| Rainer Deyke ( probably would have ) wrote: | | Writing large and complex projects in PHP is very strenuous on the mind. Therefore PHP is not good for large and complex projects. |
Notice how I kept true to the style of your original message? (That is, the above statements are not openly stating opinion. In fact, I'd say those are stating opinion as fact.)
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So anyway, I don't want to start another debate. Just wanted to get that off my chest. I think I was a bit harsh in my posts but, well, I was insulted. I apologize. (Especially to BigManJones. You're adorable. I'm sorry if I hurt you.)
Also; It took way too long to write this reply...
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white_door
Icemonkey
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 243
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:44 am Post subject: |
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another option if all you are wanting to do it include one page inside another is shtml. It doesn't have many features but for something simple (like including a menu on every page) it can do the job.
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Bjorn
Demon Hunter
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1425
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, rpgdx.net has PHP and MySQL setup already.
I've had enough discussion about PHP now. It's true that you've got to watch your programming, or serious security issues can arise. But it's also true that it's very convenient for scripting websites like RPGDX. Hoping not to have created the need for additional (maybe heated) comments, I'm closing this thread.
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